The basic scuba course - enough training?

[DevonDiver]

I'd agree here...and add that this Open Water cert should be referred to as a " Learner's Permit".

Very much so. I think any diver should be honest about how much capability they can acquire in 4 dives. The 'end state' really does demand conservative diving, well within the recommended limits.

Likewise, there isn't any opportunity to ingrain the skills... newly qualified divers should also recognise the need to practice and ingrain those skills on subsequent dives. Very few do...and I see this as a failing within the taught materials... not enough emphasis is put on that need.

Scuba skills might be taught/learnt on a short entry-level course, but they aren't conditioned. There is a fundamental difference between those two levels, which makes a big difference when the skills are needed during a high stress situation.

 

[danvolker]

DD asked
And the answer is, Maybe!

What would make them essentially the same is IF the student and instructor(s) in the first instance had a real plan to integrate the training so that the student came out of the 12th dive with the same set of skills contemplated in the 12-dive course. I know that sounds simplistic but the reality is, the 12-dive course assumes a program which fits and uses each dive to support the next. The 3 course offering SHOULD DO THE SAME but I'm afraid too often does not.

Hey, everyone, I am NOT saying that someone who takes a minimalist course will come out with the same skill and knowledge level as one who takes a (for instance) GUE "Basic Open Water" class. They are two different things. I am saying that there is no reason why a student can not be taught Basic Open Water Recreational Diving Skills in the "minimalist" type course such that the student would be comfortable doing a dive with an outfit off of Molokini and then Wailea Point.

Peter, here's and idea for you ....
Why not talk to the "powers that be" at PADI, and have them create a NEW specialty ( which they will make money from , called Mentor Diver.....

Probably after advanced and after rescue, with more than 100 logged dives, or more than 500 ( better still ...

You get a Mentor Diver status, and boats will give you a discount to dive with new Open Water Divers in 3 man buddy teams ???? Get Mentors into PADI, and get new open water divers thinking about being able to dive with good divers and begin to "ingrain" the knowledge over the next several dozen dives with Mentors. Great with the "Learner's Permit" concept, which is really what an Open water cert is now....

 

[Peter Guy]

Dan -- they do have a "Mentor" class within the PADI system -- it's called Divemaster!

DD -- my two biggest "complaints" regarding the PADI system (and let it be known I truly do believe in "the system" which is why I teach within it) are that:

a. Fundamental lack of true quality control on the output -- what one instructor does can be (and is) significantly different from another instructor; and

b. The emphasis on continuing education "classes" as opposed to continuing education "lessons."

Regarding the latter -- I just received an email from a student asking if I taught "lessons" to which I responded, yes. And we'll get together in a few weeks, do some diving and while diving, she'll get some coaching on her weak spots (at least that will be the plan).

This is in line with the excellent advice I received from my original ski instructor (a phys ed professor at the university in which I had the good fortune to take skiing as a P.E. class) -- "Ski until you reach a plateau and then go take a ski lesson or two to get you over the hump. Then go skiing until you reach the next plateau...."

This is advice that needs to be given to every diver -- go diving within the scope of your training and expand the boundaries until you reach a plateau -- then go take some lessons and go diving and expand the boundaries until you reach a plateau....

 

[DevonDiver]

DD -- my two biggest "complaints" regarding the PADI system (and let it be known I truly do believe in "the system" which is why I teach within it) are that:
a. Fundamental lack of true quality control on the output -- what one instructor does can be (and is) significantly different from another instructor;

I absolutely agree with that. The variation is shocking. I think there are two reasons for that:

1) Quality Control (as you said). The QA system is very biased to provide 'positive results' that make PADI look good. Students have to fill in a questionnaire sent by PADI. Most don't... because PADI don't include a pre-paid envelope when they send the questionnaire out. I think that moving the QA system to an online form would be very beneficial. Also, the questions are very specific and relate to the completion of certain skills - they do not measure the student's appreciation of the quality of the skills they have developed.. or their satisfaction with the end result of the course. That said, student's are hardly the best qualified people to assess the quality of their education, because if they are poorly taught, they won't know it (comparatively against a 'standard' OW product).

2) The Definition of 'Mastery'. This is the 'yard-stick' given to PADI instructors - but it is too vague and too easily abused. It can mean as little as one single 'textbook' completion of a skill. It should mean more than that. Each skill should have a more specific grading system (like Divemaster assessments)... and skills should be demonstrated satisfactorily more than once, to ensure retention and comfort.

b. The emphasis on continuing education "classes" as opposed to continuing education "lessons."

We both know that PADI make a lot of their money via income from PIC cards. I don't see anything wrong with classes, providing those classes are well taught, progressive and flexible enough to be developmental for the specific needs of each student. There is flexibility in the syllabus of each course for instructors to do that... but many don't bother.

My personal view is that divers should be trained up to Rescue Diver level in a timely manner. That's the true 'end point' for me. A diver should have rescue skills. OW provides the core scuba skills...AOW provides refinement (and remedial practice if required)...and Rescue ends the 'core' training for a safe, competent diver.

Regarding the latter -- I just received an email from a student asking if I taught "lessons" to which I responded, yes. And we'll get together in a few weeks, do some diving and while diving, she'll get some coaching on her weak spots (at least that will be the plan).

I do agree with this. I offer a similar thing... I'm happy to mentor a diver on skills they already know/have been taught. Sometimes things just don't get embedded or refined enough in a 'class'. However, I do only introduce new skills within a formal training environment (either a PADI class or a workshop training session - depending on the skills/topic involved). In addition, I also recommend to my students that they take advantage of doing post-course diving with me, during which time I can further coach them on the new skills they've acquired and/or supervise them as they apply those new skills 'for real'. In reality, a lot of my students end up doing at least double the stated amount of training dives on a given course (if their schedules allow - as I teach in a holiday location)... but the extra ones are 'fun dives'.

 

[danvolker]

Dan -- they do have a "Mentor" class within the PADI system -- it's called Divemaster!

DD -- my two biggest "complaints" regarding the PADI system (and let it be known I truly do believe in "the system" which is why I teach within it) are that:

a. Fundamental lack of true quality control on the output -- what one instructor does can be (and is) significantly different from another instructor; and

b. The emphasis on continuing education "classes" as opposed to continuing education "lessons."

Regarding the latter -- I just received an email from a student asking if I taught "lessons" to which I responded, yes. And we'll get together in a few weeks, do some diving and while diving, she'll get some coaching on her weak spots (at least that will be the plan).

This is in line with the excellent advice I received from my original ski instructor (a phys ed professor at the university in which I had the good fortune to take skiing as a P.E. class) -- "Ski until you reach a plateau and then go take a ski lesson or two to get you over the hump. Then go skiing until you reach the next plateau...."

This is advice that needs to be given to every diver -- go diving within the scope of your training and expand the boundaries until you reach a plateau -- then go take some lessons and go diving and expand the boundaries until you reach a plateau....

Totally agree witht he ski instruction example....as to the DM cert, in which , yes, you are amusing here , I think this is more cost and more involved than a Mentor needs, by far.
A mentor does not need to be able to fix everybodies broken gear, does not need to be a "dive professional".....just a good diver...the course would be less time by far in class, and require more logged dives perhaps than a DM cert...