The deep air angle - split from Missouri Fatality

[Hank49]

I've worked with insurance providers and they list "Do you SCUBA" on the private apps. If you check "yes" they either hit you with a higher premium or turn you down. The app doesn't ask if you dive Trimix. It doesn't ask if you stay above 100'. It doesn't ask if you have a pony bottle.

It asks only if you SCUBA. The risk starts there and they don't qualify how much risk you take based on your personal beliefs, comforts, training, or gear. Putting I am DIR on the app doesn't do crap. Saying you never dive below 100' won't insure your family.

I applied for life insurance about 10 years ago and as you said, they asked if I scuba dived. I said yes and they asked what level of training I had. I said I was a PADI instructor. And THEY said, "oh, well that doesn't matter then as long as your a professional there is no increase in premiums".
Wonder what they would have said if I said I just passed Cave 1? (which I haven't)

 

[jvevea]

Being impared reduces your ability to handle anything that happens underwater. This isn't rocket surgey. And like I said before, there are "classes" that teach (ya right) people how to "handle" narcosis. Imagine if we offered a drunk driving class...

Actually, we kind of used to. I remember very clearly (well, that is to say, as clearly as I remember anything from 1972), my high school driver training instructor tutoring us on how to drive home from a party without getting into trouble when we'd had a couple too many. What we've seen since then is a radical change in mores, such that it is no longer socially acceptable to acknowledge driving drunk, although we see people driving buzzed all the time. I think a similar thing is happening in scuba: the cultural standards are changing because of the availability of trimix.

I happen to feel comfortable on deep air because I know from experience that I can handle the narcosis adequately. The difference is that, unlike the drunk driver, I'm not in imminent danger of killing anyone but myself if it should turn out that that assessment is faulty. (I usually dive solo.) My family, of course, would be affected, but I am well insured. (My non-group policy was purchased years before I became a diver, and I have more than adequate group coverage.)

So here's my question for you, PfcAJ: Why the heck is it any skin of your neck if I make the educated choice to dive deep air?

 

[David_57]

Actually, we kind of used to. I remember very clearly (well, that is to say, as clearly as I remember anything from 1972), my high school driver training instructor tutoring us on how to drive home from a party without getting into trouble when we'd had a couple too many. What we've seen since then is a radical change in mores, such that it is no longer socially acceptable to acknowledge driving drunk, although we see people driving buzzed all the time. I think a similar thing is happening in scuba: the cultural standards are changing because of the availability of trimix.

I happen to feel comfortable on deep air because I know from experience that I can handle the narcosis adequately. The difference is that, unlike the drunk driver, I'm not in imminent danger of killing anyone but myself if it should turn out that that assessment is faulty. (I usually dive solo.) My family, of course, would be affected, but I am well insured. (My non-group policy was purchased years before I became a diver, and I have more than adequate group coverage.)

So here's my question for you, PfcAJ: Why the heck is it any skin of your neck if I make the educated choice to dive deep air?

hehe its not he just wants everyone to know he has his Trimix cert

 

[DCBC]

What bothers me is when someone thinks they can tell other divers how to dive, what gas to use, how deep to dive (regardless of the diver's training & experience), what equipment to wear, or what risks the diver should be willing to take.

If someone has the experience and training and wants to dive to 200' on air great! If someone wants to penetrate a cave, a wreck, use a CCR, or dive Trimix to 300', I'd suggest that they be properly trained and then let their own judgment prevail. Who is anyone of us to say otherwise?

 

[waterpirate]

This disscussion is really not about deep air, It is about training standards and the place in time that you were trained, and by whom.
It was not that long ago that mixed gas and tech training were hard to get. It was an exclusive club. Now that tech diving has become more common and the training agencies who once said that nitrox will kill you are teaching tech diving, Training standards were bound to suffer.
I fully support anyones choice to dive deep air if they have a high tollerance for the results it yields and are aware of the risks. I do not support training deep air anymore, There is no need for it imho.
It used to be that to get tech trained you had to know someone who knew someone and go for a interview of sorts with the instructor and at least one dive so they could measure you up. While this still goes on, there are also people offering training to people who need more skills work before advancing.
It has become about the dollar and a lack of understanding on the part of the prospective student. Anyone who has done any inquiring at all on te web or from people who are diving tech in their area, would immediately know that an agency or instructor that was still training deep air would not be a good choice. Divers even twenty years ago were considered manly men and we only had air to work with. The world moved on and most of us moved with it, some did not.
In the end it boils down to an individuals ability to assess their own level of risk that they are willing to accept. What is not acceptable is the lack of explanation of this risk to perspective tech students who just want to be with the cool kids.
Eric

 

[AndrewA]

Over the years I seem to be diving less and less on air. At shallower depths I dive nitrox and deep to 40m I usually use trimix (in the 30-40m range it depends on the dive ,but if I'm on a twin set I am more frequently on a "hot trimix").
Until I used trimix for deeper (>50m) dives I had never considered it for shallower dives and in truth had never appreciated just how narced I was at 40+m. I dive trimix in the 35-50m range because I enjoy and remeber the dive much better (and sometimes get to laugh at the antics of my air breathing buddies!).
Do I think that having a clearer head makes my dive safer? Probably.
Do I think that the enhanced dive experience is worth the extra expense of trimix? Definitely.

 

[DCBC]

This disscussion is really not about deep air, It is about training standards and the place in time that you were trained, and by whom.

I would agree with you to a degree Eric. Diver's who have been around for a long time had air and nothing else for many years. Although I've been a mixed-gas instructor since the early 70's, I like my contemporaries at the time, looked at using Helium only when it was needed and not as a matter of course. I still feel that way.

I don't mind if someone wants to use Helium for a 100' dive, that's up to him. I do mind if he publicly chastises others for a different choice of gas.

... I fully support anyones choice to dive deep air if they have a high tollerance for the results it yields and are aware of the risks. I do not support training deep air anymore, There is no need for it imho.

The sport diving depth limit for diving air has historically been set at 130 feet. Some divers who wish to dive to this depth are not familiar enough with using air at this depth. Why would you not support these people to seek further instruction in deep air? Would you prefer that they dove without it?

...Divers even twenty years ago were considered manly men and we only had air to work with. The world moved on and most of us moved with it, some did not.

That sounds rather condescending. I've never looked down on a diver for using air; not 38 years ago when I started using Helium and not now. I do however think that it's arrogant to think that some people "haven't moved on."

In the end it boils down to an individuals ability to assess their own level of risk that they are willing to accept.

We agree on this point.

 

[waterpirate]

Deep air to me starts at 130 in the context of tech training. I feel personally that not using nitrox at 130 and less is another poor choice, but that is just me. You can not account for all people, we are all different and make our own choices. A pissing contest or chastising someone is just counter productive.
I meant nothing condescending to anyone just a statement of fact, non-denomanational if you will. I frequently run into people who still dive circa 1980 standards, it is there choice. We have learned so much since then that it is those people who have not moved on with the world that I am refering. I chose to move with the world.
Eric

 

[Cave Diver]

If someone has the experience and training and wants to dive to 200' on air great! If someone wants to penetrate a cave, a wreck, use a CCR, or dive Trimix to 300', I'd suggest that they be properly trained and then let their own judgment prevail. Who is anyone of us to say otherwise?

I can agree with all of the above. The problem I see is when people who don't know any better think that they are qualified to do a dive because everyone else says "oh, there's nothing to worry about, it's easy!"

For a long time, many of the deaths in caves were OW instructors who felt that because they were instructors they were "qualified" for overhead. Training or experience in one type of diving does not automatically translate into competence in another.

 

[DCBC]

For a long time, many of the deaths in caves were OW instructors who felt that because they were instructors they were "qualified" for overhead. Training or experience in one type of diving does not automatically translate into competence in another.

I totally agree. Although I don't think that taking a formal training program is the only way to develop the necessary skill to do something. As an example, I was trained to cave dive by George Benjamin. George is recognized as one of the leading cave diving explorers of his time. Despite cave training being available, George wasn't a trained cave diver. He picked-up what he needed by experience and later, through mentors like Cousteau and contemporaries like Mount and others. You can get competence by doing, if you chose to accept that risk.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for not learning the hard way and being shown how to do something by someone who knows. I don't however believe that a "qualified instructor" is the only way to obtain the requisite knowledge. It is for many, the most convenient way.