The Ethics of Full Disclosure on ScubaBoard

[lionfish-eater]

read and discuss:

From forbes, link :Reddit is Being Manipulated By Big Financial Services Companies

This explains a little more about how it works using Reddit as an example. It happens on FB, Twiter,instag,pintrist, and maybe here on SB as well.

This is from the article:

Reddit is being regularly manipulated by large financial services companies with fake accounts and fake upvotes via seemingly ordinary internet marketing agencies.

“I work with a number of accounts on Reddit that we can use to change the conversation. And make it a bit more positive.”

This was the startling admission of a professional-looking marketing agency that, in a phone call with me, openly bragged about manipulating conversations on Reddit.

This wasn’t a one-off, nor was it the result of weeks of plumbing the depths of the dark web looking for shilling services. Finding this agency, and several others, took less than a few hours of basic Googling.

Image credit: Jay McGregor Image credit: Jay McGregor

The business of Internet shilling - posing as a genuine forum user but being in the employ of a corporation to promote their work - is booming. And it has been for a long time. From fake Amazon reviews to the U.S Army astroturfing social media, comment manipulation is as old as the very concept of internet forums.

Fake comments and fake conversations being hard to spot, especially when they’re made by specialist agencies, makes shilling big business.

Nowhere is this more apparent than on Reddit. Being the world’s 22nd most popular website and the U.S.’ 7th makes it a popular target because of the hundreds of millions of eyeballs it attracts every month.

In December last year, I managed to place two entirely fake news stories onto influential subreddits - with millions of subscribers - and vote them to the top with fake accounts and fake upvotes for less than $200. It was simple, cheap and effective.

We created fake Brexit news and got it to top of an influential subreddit with fake votes. Image credit: Jay McGregor We created fake Brexit news and got it to top of an influential subreddit with fake votes. Image credit: Jay McGregor

What I hadn’t realised at the time was how widespread this shilling issue was. Professional marketing agencies, with offices in several different countries, offer these services often under the guise of "reputation management." They don’t specifically talk about manipulating conversations online, instead using coded, dog whistle language like “targeted techniques” and “competitor slander.”

But, to verify that these companies are selling professional forum manipulation services, I had to get in contact. So I developed a back story and called a few agencies.

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The first UK-based agency I spoke to was more candid than the language on its website. A representative brazenly told me that it had handled “multinational and multilingual” campaigns for forex (financial and currency exchange) companies. As if it was an everyday, pedestrian activity to wage war on authentic discourse on behalf of a faceless corporation.

When pressed on his exact methods, he explained “Well there's different IP addresses, they have real emails behind them that aren't anything to do with your company at all, different avatars, you know, if you can tell me roughly what they're saying, we can rework it so it looks natural. So we'll make an effort to make it look natural.”

He continued, “I work with a number of accounts on Reddit as well that we can use and just, basically, change the conversation. And make it a bit more positive. We can get rid of the negative thread and just start a new thread”.

He didn’t go into specifics of which companies - and didn’t offer links to previous campaigns even after I repeatedly asked, explaining that he valued customer privacy. Which is why I’ve chosen to not name the agencies, because I can’t verify the work they’ve done outside of the claims the agencies themselves have made.

This is part of the problem, despite the efforts of myself, and the Point team, we couldn’t find obvious fake comments, despite it clearly being widespread. These are, after all, professional services and all boast about their ability to blend in. If we’re specifically looking for fake comments and find none, how can the average user?

For this particular service, I was quoted £1200 per month for unlimited conversation and vote manipulation. This wasn’t a one-off, at least four other agencies offered similar services. These aren’t underground, single-person organisations running out of their parents’ basement. These are professional, fully staffed companies with international offices and, ostensibly, fee-paying clients.

Another agency offer 100 comments for $150. Image credit: Jay McGregor Another agency offer 100 comments for $150. Image credit: Jay McGregor

Another U.S.-based marketing firm I spoke with was even more candid.

see next post

 

[lionfish-eater]

“Work on Reddit is very sensitive, and requires hiring of Reddit users with aged accounts who have good standing in the community. "We do have a few existing users on staff, but for each campaign we create a custom roadmap and staff it accordingly, as unless the comments come from authentic users with an active standing in the community in question they will immediately be called out - and that has the opposite effect of damaging your reputation. Our success at shifting the conversation depends heavily on who we find and vet for the process.” The agency’s representative continued to tell me the extent of their work. “I have worked over 100 of these kinds of campaigns and never had it come back on the client. I've been doing viral marketing and reputation management since 2005. =In the past year I've worked for a major entertainment network to magnify a rumor within sports entertainment, as well as damage control on a rumor that came out of an actor being hired on a film before the production company was ready to announce that casting.” Shilling services from an online marketing agency. Image credit: Jay McGregor Shilling services from an online marketing agency. Image credit: Jay McGregor To get a better picture of the extent of the problem, I spoke to with two influential Reddit moderators who are the site’s first line of defence against malicious use of Reddit. Robert Allam, who moderates 70 subreddits, and English06 (he didn’t want to reveal his real name), who moderates the influential r/politics sub, had strong opinions on shilling. Check out my interview with Reddit's most (in)famous user, Gallowboob Both agreed that the issue is apparent and that they could do with more tools to stave off the onslaught of fake comments. At the moment, they can only tell if a post isn’t genuine by the user’s account history; how old it is and how much karma it has (Reddit’s point system where users are rewarded for posting content). If an account has good karma and is relatively old, then it “immediately rules out a lot of suspicions” Engish06 told me. But this isn’t an effective way of spotting fakers. The agencies I spoke with explicitly talked about using aged accounts, and when I spoke with an account dealer late last year, he sent spreadsheets of usernames for sale of various ages. Reddit accounts for sale. Image credit: Jay McGregor Reddit accounts for sale. Image credit: Jay McGregor English06 - who compares the moderator role to being a forum janitor - explained that to properly solve the problem, the volunteer moderators need more tools, or admins (Reddit staff) need to step in more. “I think we're doing the best we can with the tools we have available. We're able to look at user history and stuff and determine a lot of it but as far as doing it on a larger- I mean, politics is the second busiest subreddit behind The Donald on Reddit. There's a lot going on. "There's always something to be done on the politics subreddit. And it's just, there's just a lot of volume. As far as stopping everything, there's nothing the moderators will ever be able to do. We can only see the user history. That's going to have to come from the admin side of things. There's just nothing we can do.” It’s not uncommon, too, for moderators to be targeted by companies that want to manipulate influential subreddits. “You can make money off Reddit. I've gotten a lot of offers to try and plug products, just make a gif out of a video, plug it, try to link stuff, some articles, some shady articles that just- they're like, yeah, if I send you an article could you post it?” Allam explained. He continued “there was a Chinese company that wanted to send me a drone and something else, some gadget, and for me to film it and post it for money but then- I don't know how to film stuff. I'm not interested in promoting products like that because I'm not a producer, what the hell am I going to do? How is that fun? Even if I did, it would kill my whole presence on Reddit.” Allam, who works for a viral video company, has had to make it clear to his employers that wouldn’t consider using his position to promote their videos, despite being asked. “I have everything to lose. And if I lose everything, it's just not worth it for what? More money? Obviously, if they paid me, like, $5,000,000 to post something, **** yeah I'm posting that but, you know what I mean, for a salary, what? Am I going to shill my account on Reddit? It's personal, I enjoy it, it's how I made a name for myself and I do take a weird pride in it.” Clearly, Reddit is being manipulated and gamed on a wide scale by companies who want to promote a specific cause, product or politician. This isn’t just a fake news problem, it’s a fake conversations problem. If fake news can be solved with fact-checking, how can fake conversations be stopped when the commenter isn’t interested in anything other than debating you into submission? The wider implications of are damaging too. Non-engaged users (those who read but don’t comment) are often swayed by the overall tone of the conversation. I presented Reddit with my findings and asked it if it’s doing enough to combat fake comments, threads and upvotes. But in a bizarre response, the company’s representative - Anna Soellner - didn’t bother to address any of these questions, instead providing a statement that seemed to be a response to my previous story. “In order to write your story, you and your co-author engaged in multiple levels of impersonation, violating the terms of service of Reddit. Our users recognized the stories you posted as fake and community moderators removed the links in a very short time frame. We are continuously working with our users and moderators to ensure the integrity of our site to promote genuine conversation.” Soellner said. Whilst I didn’t manage to get these agencies to spill the specific campaigns and companies they’ve worked with, scanning Reddit’s HailCorporate thread reveals some very suspect posts. This thread about Red Bull, in particular, looks like clear marketing. It was eventually deleted and the user account was removed once it was called out as marketing. Alleged Red Bull marketing. Image credit: Jay McGregor Alleged Red Bull marketing. Image credit: Jay McGregor The ubiquity of Reddit manipulation, and the ease with which anyone can employ these agencies - or even tactics - should be of concern to millions of Reddit users. Genuine, real user-generated content is key to Reddit’s success. Without the assurance of that authenticity, it makes it hard to take anything on Reddit - and indeed any other popular forum - seriously. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length. Jay McGregor is the editor-in-chief of the YouTube channel, Point. He also reports for The Guardian,

 

[drrich2]

“Work on Reddit is very sensitive, and requires hiring of Reddit users with aged accounts who have good standing in the community. "We do have a few existing users on staff, but for each campaign we create a custom roadmap and staff it accordingly, as unless the comments come from authentic users with an active standing in the community in question they will immediately be called out - and that has the opposite effect of damaging your reputation. Our success at shifting the conversation depends heavily on who we find and vet for the process.”

This is the most dangerous & alarming thing you shared, in my view. When someone posts a glowing review on Scuba Board that reads like ad copy, 1st thing I look at is post count (1 to 5, less credible) and username (in case it's a user I recognize as trust worthy).

I suppose it's 'in our favor,' in a twisted way, that the scuba industry seems to be regarded as a niche market not known for dripping with vast wealth, but that raises a question...

How expensive is it to hire people with 'aged accounts' and community credibility to shill for your product? Scuba Board is probably prominent enough in mainstream recreational dive culture to influence community thought. How big does a company have to be to make this effort worthwhile?

Richard.

 

[Wookie]

In 2012, we received our less than 5 star review on the Spree on Facebook. We received 4 or 5 more in short order. I looked at the reviewer, and they had middle eastern names, and had obviously never been on the boat before. I sent a message to one, and for 5 bucks, he would remove the negative review. I negated the ability to leave reviews shortly after.

I have been offered multiple times to hire an agency to leave positive reviews.

 

[Bubblesong]

Hang on, I just realized the two recommendation-screw-overs I am dealing with were not even shills, just people vouching for friends, without knowing how NOT good they were. One was a plumber screwed up three tasks out of four that made me doubt his license to safely own a plunger. The second is my neighbor rented to a serial squatter in town who keeps getting rentals by getting acquaintances to vouch for her to their friends on Sunday nights, "need a place right now, too late to do background checks" and it keeps working! We just have to learn to start, but not rely, on recommendations.

 

[drrich2]

Wookie, appreciate the input. If this problem was bad enough to affect a one boat live-aboard op., that broadens the expected range of potential targets (as opposed to just LeisurePro or ScubaPro haven't to watch out). At least they didn't bring to bear the level of sophistication described previously, but if you had to disable reviews to protect your business, then you had to turn off positive reviews that promote your business. NetDoc has posted in the past about how important word-of-mouth from customers is in promoting a scuba business.

Businesses can post selected reviews on a testimonials page, but I have nowhere near the faith on those I do in settings whether people can post bad as well as good review, like Amazon, TripAdvisor, Scuba Board, etc...

Another log on the 'fake news' fire...

Richard.

 

[sheeper]

I make no pretense of not being a dive professional. Just look at my signature!
Yes, the stuff I dive I get at a good discount or free. Yes, I tend to speak highly of stuff we sell.
However, I also really like the gear I dive with. It is quality gear that stands up to the torture I put it thru. There is a lot of great gear that we don't sell. And I even dive some of it because it's quality and I like it.
If I call something crap....it probably is.

 

[cool_hardware52]

I'm opposed to *any* marketing scheme that seeks to corrupt. "Spiffs" and Third party payments of all sorts are *all* efforts to corrupt.

Why did airlines start to offer "miles"? Simple, miles (at least originally) accrued to the traveler, and for the business traveler who was spending his company's money, MIles were intended to corrupt the traveler and influence his choices in ways that may not be in the best interest of the guy (the employer)

Freight companies have long offered some sort of "bonus" or free travel, year end Hawaii Vacations etc. for using their services to Shipping Managers. Their goal was to corrupt the Shipping manager and influence the choice of freight company. The choice of who moves the outbound freight is no longer based on the best deal for the company paying the bill, or even the best service for the customer, it's based on making the level required to "earn" the free trip.

Offering commissions, free gear, free "swag" based on referrals / recommendations to those who are not required to clearly disclose at the time of the recommendation that they will benefit from making the recommendation is just another form of corruption.....

This is why I have never engaged in such practices.

Tobin

 

[Bubblesong]

Tobin, I used to travel nationally selling a type of factory instrumentation, and took customers out for lunch. The customers gave ME free product: chips at Fritos Lay or case of coffee or whatever. This was considered relationship building and since all sales folks do it, it balances out influence. I still had to show my machine improved quality and profits, or no sale. I have to think this is true for most sales situations, or the customers are quickly out of business! For SCUBA, experienced dives can see through gimmicks and freebies to the good and improved equipment, would you agree?

 

[The Chairman]

Meh. We live in a capitalistic society. You can try to legislate it and they will find another way to market themselves. If a certain practice doesn't fit your business model then don't do it. You can complain when others do it, but it's kind of hollow if they get customers using it. In that respect, people can and will vote with their wallets and time. When I took over SB, businesses weren't allowed to promote themselves. So, we had a ton of businesses create sock puppets to promote themselves. It was a lot of work for staff and opening SB up to businesses was one of the first changes I made. Then, in a phone discussion with @cerich, the Manufacturer's forums were created. I think it's important for the community to not only accept, but to embrace manufacturers, agencies, dive ops and resorts. I am always available to help businesses do better with the SB Tribe. Some listen to me while some feel I'm full of crap. Some embrace the competing ideas while others feel that we should delete any opinion or representation of their gear they don't agree with. I can't tell you how many times a few have complained that we allow others to post about their gear if they doesn't like what they say. I could name names, but that would only make them have a public hissy fit. They constantly tell me how useless ScubaBoard is for them, and yet they post... and post... and post. Their actions indeed speak louder than their words. It's all good. We're still glad you're here and still posting (and posting).

In the end, the most reasonable voice wins. People who push an agenda are ultimately shunned by the very people they are trying so hard to convince. When ever I respond in a thread, I don't post to change the minds of the people actively disagreeing with me. That's not going to happen except in rare cases. No, I post to influence the people who are merely reading the exchange. More people typically read a thread than actually post in it and I try to appeal to them. If I have an agenda: it's how important trim and neutral buoyancy are to enjoying Scuba. Other than that, I try to remain as friendly as possible, admit my mistakes when I make them and evolve with the community. I certainly won't shy away from controversy and enjoy a good dust up now and then. Again, people are free to vote with their wallets and time if they don't like how we do things here. We might lose a user or advertiser here and there, but I try to look at the bigger picture. What's good for the community is my primary concern.