The LDS of the future

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- You don't need someone with "real credentials" to teach an OW class ... if by that you mean an instructor who is world-renouned and can charge top dollar for their time. Those instructors typically don't teach at the recreational level ... or they teach the very wealthy who can afford the best of the best. A good recreational instructor needs to be competent in the skills they're teaching, needs adequate knowledge to be able to explain "why" what they are teaching is important, needs patience to work with students who may be struggling to adapt to this new environment, and needs adequate teaching ability to be able to transfer knowledge and evaluate student needs at an individual level.

People learn behaviors early. Train an OW student that diving is cheap and easy and they'll expect it to be.

- I made about the same money per hour as a ski instructor that I'm currently making as a scuba instructor.

Which is tragic, knowing what most ski instructors make.

- Paying a reasonable rate for a reasonable product isn't "skimping" ... I've paid upwards of $2000 for a scuba class ... but not at the recreational level. Nor would I ... nor would I expect anyone else to.

Fine, but let's agree that there's a lot of room between $400 and $2,000. Also think about the tech course that you paid $2,000 for and how many hours the instructor spent teaching the course. My guess is fewer than the number of hours an OWSI spends on the $400 class. There's a gross inequity in there.

- A $4 air fill is certainly "good enough" when all you're doing is a recreational-level reef dive. I will gladly pay for that $40 trimix fill when the dive calls for it ... but I would not consider someone at the recreational level either "cheap" or "unsafe" because they chose not to dive trimix. Frankly, at their level it's a waste of money..

One must keep these thoughts in perspective ... if you're training cave or deep wreck divers, by all means stop thinking about cost. If all you want to do is go dive in a quarry, lake or reef somewhere, then use common sense ... find an instructor who meets the criteria I listed in the first bullet, and go have some fun. You don't need private instruction with Jarrod Jablonski in order to dive at the recreational level.

My point was more that people who are likely to bargain shop also make irresponsible diving decisions - such as diving air when the appropriate gas is mix. Somehow saving $36 represents a greater victory than making prudent choices.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I hope you in no way see this as an attack, I think we're mostly saying the same thing - I'm just opining that your time is probably worth more than you're charging for it.
 
The world is much larger then wake county... I agree in your area and many others they can be hard to find... Then again your 3hrs from the beach... Emerald isle area has several full-time instructors...

I'm five minutes from the beach ... there are 17 dive shops within an hour or less drive from my home ... most of them charge much less for OW classes than I do ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
Now as for servicing my equipment of course I will use my LDS, I'm no fool....

Well, I guess I am a fool then. After having the experience of a couple different LDSs doing a poor job of regulator service, I did a little research and decided it couldn't be any harder than doing a brake job or a carburetor rebuild and have never looked back. The down side is there is one less reason to buy another regulator (and another and another....).
 
People learn behaviors early. Train an OW student that diving is cheap and easy and they'll expect it to be.
I don't believe my class is cheap ... my students could easily find an alternative for much less than I charge. And all of my students come into the class knowing ... because I make it clear to them ... that there is no guaranteed "pass" ... they'll have to earn it. I think I do a pretty good job setting expectations. What I WON'T do is set them unrealistically high ... nobody in my area charges $50 an hour for scuba instruction ... not even the tech instructors.


Which is tragic, knowing what most ski instructors make.
... in Vermont and California, perhaps ...

Fine, but let's agree that there's a lot of room between $400 and $2,000. Also think about the tech course that you paid $2,000 for and how many hours the instructor spent teaching the course. My guess is fewer than the number of hours an OWSI spends on the $400 class. There's a gross inequity in there.
Actually not ... that was an eight-day class ... pretty much all day each day ...


My point was more that people who are likely to bargain shop also make irresponsible diving decisions - such as diving air when the appropriate gas is mix. Somehow saving $36 represents a greater victory than making prudent choices.
Then make that point! I've personally paid more than $200 for breathing gas on some of the dives I've done. However, I will happily dive a $4 fill on a shallow dive at my local mudhole. That make me neither cheap nor unsafe ... simply practical.

I hope you in no way see this as an attack, I think we're mostly saying the same thing - I'm just opining that your time is probably worth more than you're charging for it.
No ... I don't take your comments personally at all ... and my time probably is worth more than I'm charging for it. But it's my choice to charge what I do ... and I can assure you I get all the financial and personal rewards I want out of what I do and how I do it.

I believe I see your point. I just think you need to keep it in perspective. I WANT people to get into diving, to continue diving, and to have competence ... I work hard to help them attain that. But I just don't see the point in spending money you don't have to ... whether it's for training, equipment, or breathing gas. I encourage my students to shop around ... get the best value for their money ... and make practical choices based on the type of diving they intend to do.

It's when we start flinging around labels like "cheap" and "unsafe" for people who make different choices than us that we begin losing credibility ... because while those choices may be right for us, they are not necessarily the best choices for people living in different areas, or diving in different environments.

We need to keep that in mind when we post in these threads ... we can only really relate to the type of diving and training that we've been exposed to ... and that really doesn't work for everybody else ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
Actually not ... that was an eight-day class ... pretty much all day each day ...

8 days @ 8 hour days = 64 hours = $31.25/hr
OWSD @ ~30 hours (ish) = $13.30/hr

Granted that's per person, so if you can load up the OWSD with 3+ people you're coming out ahead of a private tech course at that rate. Most of the tech stuff I've done was 2-4 people ($62.5-$125/hr).
 
First off, never assume 8-hour days for scuba instruction ... we don't work in an office. I've taken ... and given ... classes that started at 8 AM and ended when it started getting dark.

Second ... I don't expect to earn as much teaching OW, AOW or Rescue classes as a cave instructor earns teaching cave classes.

If you guys can find students willing to pay you $50 an hour for OW instruction, more power to ya ... personally, if someone tells me they're willing to pay over $1000 for an OW class, I'm gonna recommend they talk to our local GUE instructor ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
Think about what your saying... Do you really want 8-10$ hr instructor???

I'd rather have a free instructor that teaches because he like to, not because he needs the money. I'd also like to see the end of certification cards and "agencies."

flots.
 
21/25 isn't air, but I digress.

I'm going to throw this back at you another way. Lets say I'm looking for stickers. I happen across your website and it says I can get one color stickers in 3x5" for $50/1000. I'm very excited, so I send you my artwork in Adobe Illustrator and with Pantone color. You can then do this 2 ways.

You can tell me that the cut die fee (for my custom shape) will be an additional $75, my Pantone ink will be an additional $150, and a UV resistant ink will be an additional $45. You don't work in Adobe Illustrator, you work with CorelDraw version 14.0, and the artwork fee will be an additional $50. My $50 stickers will now be $370, and I'm miffed, because, you see, I feel you're ripping me off.

OR. You can tell me my stickers will be $350/1000 for 3x5" custom size UV resistant stickers. From that price (you will still have to have your die maker make a die), you can reduce the paint fee because you can talk me out of Pantone, we're already priced for UV resistant, and I happen to have licensed copies of both Adobe Illustrator and CorelDraw and can provide the art in whichever format you choose. Now my $350 stickers are going to cost me $150. I feel good that you have saved me money, we've opened a dialogue and I would rather shop with someone I know than someone new, and you've made more than the cut price ad you would've used to get me in the door. We've both won and can feel good about the situation. Now, you have to figure out how to get me to call you in the first place, since your price is higher than the $50 sticker guy. You do that with customer service, by chatting on all of the sticker forums, and by telling everyone you will get their stickers out the door same day and include shipping (or whatever). You do it on customer service and web presence (if you are a web based business).

I compete (loosely) with 2 other liveaboards. We all offer a ride to the same place. We all offer good air and nitrox. We all have a bunk for you to sleep in, and we all feed you. 2 of us charge about the same price, one is a bit less. On the one that is a bit less, you pay extra for nitrox, soda, beer, extras. The other 2 of us include some or all of that. AWAP rides the lower priced boat because he doesn't drink beer or soda and the extra $100 isn't worth it to him. He has made that clear to me, and there are no hard feelings either way. I have made a good business by being "all inclusive". Some folks don't want to be "nickle-dimed" to death for every soda or beer they drink. It's an extra $20 at the end of the trip, but it still feels to some like they got ripped off. I still have to do something the other boat doesn't do. They spearfish, which I don't allow, so we have to emphasize that we dive in a marine sanctuary where spearing isn't allowed. We emphasize that our boat is cleaned with a "girl's touch", which a guy may not care about, but if girls are going to use the same crapper a guy has used, it needs to not have piss all over the seat. The dive shop (or dive boat) of the future needs to market so that you feel good about paying $1150 for an open water class, not so you feel ripped off because you paid $450 and had quarry fees and minimum gear purchase fees and book fees and fills and gear rentals and.....

Yes, there will always be the customer that doesn't care that he's using a PADI manual from 1986, because he doesn't know it's been revised 5 times with 2 of them being major revisions. He may get lucky and get an awesome instructor like Peter or Bob who don't really need the manual and use it as a training aid. More often, the student gets an open water card and decides they want to do some local diving at the Flower Gardens. They get to the boat woefully unprepared for the Boot-Camp like atmosphere of setting gear up, filling out releases, picking a bunk, and all of the stuff that has to be done before the boat leaves the dock which the Captain is pressuring his Divemasters to get done so they can cast off because the earlier they leave the slower they can go saving fuel=saving money= more profits=lower prices or more amenities for the consumer. Then they get seasick. Then they can't dive. Those folks are lost to diving because they had a terrible time. They tell all of their friends how they tried diving but it sucks, how they tried the Flower Gardens but it sucks, how they rode on the Spree but it sucks. What really happened is that they found a lousy instructor who didn't prepare them for the real diving world, and he sucked.

Good luck with that pontoon boat for $25 per head. I'm sure you are quite capable of running the boat, we see lots of folks here in the keys who thought that, too. How are your CPR/First Aid skills. Got your own O2 kit and AED? Do you have a radio operator's license (which isn't really required), or at least know how to operate the radio and EPIRB? Are you competent with the GPS so that you know when you arrive at the dive site? Do you know where the locations are that you can only go to if you have a permit, and how to get through the permit process? The fines can be quite extensive. Do you know how the prevailing currents run, what the moon phase is so you can anchor in the right place to hit the dive site? None of that information is critical unless the kaka hits the air mover, but that's what you pay $250 per day for. Who is going to sit on that pontoon boat while the rest of you are diving? Does he/she know how to start the motor to come back if the anchor slips, or you get washed away in the current? That's always a great story here, us captains just smile and shake our heads. I'm not trying to tell you what to do, what I'm telling you is that a $400 open water card and a military background don't necessarily qualify you to know what you don't know yet. That's what the dive shop of the future should have told you when you signed up for class. But you got a great deal on yours.....


I am by no way a Instructor nor a Captain, and I don't pretend to know how to do your job, so don't act like you know how to do mine.... We don't use die for our bumper stickers nor any sticker out there, we don't charge a setup fee especially if the artwork is print ready. I am retired military and I prefer bottom line up front period. If you had any idea what or where I was talking about you can go to their website and see they rent their Pontoon boats for $25 an hour, I am not making this up. Oh driving the pontoon boat, I just so happen to have a buddy who owns one and he will be glad to drive it for me, because his Diabetes won't let him become a diver. Again I don't pretend to know your job, so don't act like you know mine.
 
If one thing I did learn from the military it's how to cut through the BS and get to the point...
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

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