The Real "F

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The majority of feminists seem to be about equality which gets a big "yay" from me. But I want equality for everyone.

Some feminists drive me round the bend. "We're much better than men", umm...no we're not. "Naked pictures of women is demoralising and treat women as sex objects". If the women involved are paid fairly, want to do it and are happy to do it, then I don't see a problem. Like I don't have a semi-naked picture of Johnny Depp in my locker at work. :wink:

It's getting silly now. There are companies who proclaim how many women they have in head office or on the board or whatever. Great. But can they do their job? Maybe it would be more equal if we moved away from labels. I'd rather be hired because I was best for the job, not because I am a woman/am of a certain class/whatever.

Feel free to disagree!

NauticalbutNice :fruit:
 
I am not a feminists. I am a female though. I enjoy men holding the door for me and pulling my chair out for me. I also enjoy being treated like a lady. I do the same amount of work for the same amount of pay a man does and don't find that an issue. Yes I do thing without the help of a man but that is because I was raised a tomboy!!!
 
NauticalbutNice:
The majority of feminists seem to be about equality which gets a big "yay" from me. But I want equality for everyone.

Some feminists drive me round the bend. "We're much better than men", umm...no we're not. "Naked pictures of women is demoralising and treat women as sex objects". If the women involved are paid fairly, want to do it and are happy to do it, then I don't see a problem. Like I don't have a semi-naked picture of Johnny Depp in my locker at work. :wink:

It's getting silly now. There are companies who proclaim how many women they have in head office or on the board or whatever. Great. But can they do their job? Maybe it would be more equal if we moved away from labels. I'd rather be hired because I was best for the job, not because I am a woman/am of a certain class/whatever.
Feel free to disagree!

NauticalbutNice :fruit:

I am with you Nautical: Too many companies out there are having personell problems becuase they are required to hire people to try to match thier corporate environment with society, instead of hiring the right person with the right qualifications.

I think the endless pursuit of equality is the thing that keeps making equality harder to achieve.
 
The Kracken:
Seems to me that most of the women nowadays that want to be called feminists no longer look very feminine . . . .
Oh, Kracken, not this from you! You are so much more intelligent than this!
....We haven't been formally introduced :), but I've long paid attention to your thoughtful, insightful posts. And now you dredge up this cliche?
I can't speak for the others, but I'm both feminine and strong. My manners are good: When a man holds a door open for me, I thank him. Should I reach the door first, I hold it open for him. I like being called "babe" in a social setting -- in the right tone of voice -- because it makes me feel like a babe. What does tick me off, however, is when I'm doing business and a strange man calls me "hon", or tried to touch me. Oh - and I do have a pretty good sense of humor. But don't take my word for it -- test me sometime. Cheers, DM

DA Aquamaster:
Experiences such as this where "feminist" women want to be feminist when it is to their advantage and prefer to be just plain feminine when that is to their advantage are why many people object to the term "feminist".
That woman was a witch, and you had bad luck to meet her. But the beliefs and actions of one person, or several people, do not define and are not shared by all members of any group. But group indictment is very common, IMO, especially in the workplace. For any minority or special interest group, that is. This is something I don't *believe* white men experience.Or am I missing something?
I have no problem with equal pay for equal work and as a vocational counselor, I support diversity in the work place in all its forms. But implicit in this belief is the recognition of diversity and the understanding that individual men and women bring different abilities and potentials to the workplace just as any two individuals would bring different traits, skills and limitations to the workplace regardless of sex, race, age, ethnicity or disability.

Saying everyone is equal in the sense of being "the same" is not only incorrect, it is counter productive and this is definition of "equality" is I think one of the tenents commonly associated with feminisim. Yes yes yes! No no no! Agree with everything you say, except the last sentence. I believe early feminists preached "sameness", but nowadays equality is a much more common idea. Workplace pregnancy is one area where the idea of sameness is laughable.

MSilvia:
I think all people should have equal opportunites etc., but I believe calling me a feminist because of that implies a pro-woman bias that really isn't there. Fair enough: The dictionaries I used (American Heritage and Merriam-Webster, both on-line) defined "feminist" as someone believing in gender equality, or equality of the sexes. But I'm sure others would define it the way you do.

nauifins73:
Maybe we should work to change the defination to fit us.
Amen, sister-girl!
 
Some very interesting feedback from several interesting angles :) I might address some of the points that have been raised, as they reflect what I believe are common misconceptions in interpreting feminism (although, as I have pointed out, the term covers a very broad spectrum of belief, and there are lots of shades within the movement).

It has been suggested that feminists believe in the superiority of women - not at all. I reject utterly the notion that feminism = female supremacy. Are there some radicals who believe this? Ayup. I haven't personally met one in a long time - not since my student politics days - but they certainly do exist. Is it reflective of the movement as a whole? Not at all in my experience.

It has also been pointed out - correctly - that 'equality' does not mean 'sameness'. Absolutely true. As Abraham Lincoln (among others) pointed out when discussing the American Constitution, the idea that we are equal does not mean that we are all endowed with the same talents, abilities and strengths. That goes for all human beings, and not divisions by gender, race etc. There is a particular form of feminism - Cultural Feminism - that notes and celebrates these differences, and believes in distinct roles in which the different genders excel at. Now, I'm certainly not a Cultural Feminist, but I do think they have a point to a degree. I'm a realist - I know, for example, that physically I am never going to have the upper body strength of a man. Nor am I ever going to run as fast as a fit man of the same age. There are certain physical differences, many of them related to our reproductive systems, that ensure this. There are also many studies that suggest women often approach communication and problem solving in different ways then men. I work in the field of maritime history, and I have a male friend and occasional collaborator who has been known to become very frustrated with me when we discuss the bearings and co-ordinates of vessels at sea in interpreting certain historical incidents. 'Women,' he's told me, 'have no sense of spatial reasoning.' (And then, by way of mitigation, will add that 'you can multi-task like nobody's business, though'). These are generalisations, of course - there are women with exceptional spatial reasoning, just as there are men who can multitask and communicate brilliantly. I think it's useful to bear trends in mind, but each person has to be treated as an individual and not pre-judged on their talents and skilll by their gender.

The old 'don't want me to open a door for them' thing is something that many men complain of, possibly because it's the most glaring example of radicalism that many of them have encountered. My poor father is one of those that suffered from this, particularly during the late 70s and early 80s. It left him very tentative and concerned in his interactions with women, as he didn't want to offend them. A couple had rounded on him and abused him for holding open a door. This is particularly unfortunate, and I wonder how these women would have reacted had they know how he had personally -when Chief of Staff of one of the major NSW newspapers - increased the ratio of women on the staff by a huge percentage, and would have possibly even brought it up to a near 50/50% had he not been opposed by others in management. He did this not as a political statement (he wasn't a proto-affirmative activist by any means), but because he was hiring people on the basis of their talent and ability. So I am very sympathetic to men who have copped a serve of hostility for simply acting in what they had assumed was a courteous and polite manner.

I do not require anyone to open a door for me because of my gender - if I pass through a door, I keep it open for whoever follows, regardless of whether they are male or female. If someone has heavy bags, I open the door for them. If, however, a male colleague, friend or partner opens a door for me, pulls out a chair, fetches me a drink etc etc, I do not turn on them and give them a dressing down. I recognise the gesture for what I think it is - politeness, and a demonstration of the manners that have been inculcated into them. I don't need them to do it for me, I don't require it of them, but at the same time I don't resent it when they do it.

Perhaps some people here have only knowingly encountered the feminists who feel the need to stridently proclaim their feminism, and are radical feminists. Someone like myself - or my mother - is simply living it and doesn't need to identify myself at every opportunity (I certainly wouldn't have done so in the normal course of discussion on this board, but it was specifically brought up). My mother is 'feminine' by virtually any standard - she's a petite little lady, dresses nicely, wears attractive clothing, works actively in the community and with her church, is exquisitely polite and is committed to her family. She does not harrangue people with her beliefs, but she does have very firm opinions and will state them politely in her rather mellifluous tones.

As I said, I believe it's a matter of choice. If a women chooses to work, she should do so in whatever field best suits her abilities and talents. If she chooses to remain at home and raise her family and finds her fulfilment as a homemaker, then that should be entirely her choice too. Neither should have 'baggage'. Likewise with men...in fact, with all individuals. I am a feminist, but that doesn't make me any less an egalitarian or a humanist.
 
BacardiSpice:
Not really, Tom. The word actually has its origins in France in the 1880s, coined by suggeragist Hubertine Auclert- feminisme (although the motivating ideas behind it have a much longer history). It has been suggested that it came to the US in the 1906 through an article about a French Suffragist named Madeline Pelletier. It didn't really enter the popular lexicon until the 60s/70s - prior to then time the phrase 'women's liberationist' was the preferred term. However, as 'women's libber' began to carry perjorative overtones, it was abandoned for 'feminist'! Now, of course, some folks attribute a negative connotation to that word as well.

What's important to me is not the word - it's the concepts behind it. Mary Wollstonecraft wrote A Vindication of the Rights of Women long before there were labels like "women's libbers" or "feminists", for example. I don't go around proclaiming I'm a feminist, any more than I go around proclaiming any of my other philosophical beliefs. If it comes up in conversation, however, I'm happy to say that sure, I'm a feminist. If we adopted another term to embrace the same concepts, it would be just as abhorant to some individuals. You're still going to have the same types of people hijacking the debate - both the radical fringe who have 'issues' with men, and the people who feel threatened by or just don't like concepts of equality.

I'm pleased to say that my experiences with those who embrace feminism have been overwhelmingly positive - I've known a few radical women who were embittered about men, but most of the feminists I know are intelligent, moderate individuals who are honestly striving for a fairer world. I don't always agree with them - some aspects of cultural feminism I find appealing, for example, and some I don't - but they're not the shrill, strident man-haters that they're caricatured as.
Thanks for the history.
There have been many points brought up since my last post that I would like to respond to, but feel that they have been dealt with adequately.
Maybe, if I feel confused the next time I read this thread, I'll go through and pull all/many of the points and replay/reprise/reply in some summary form in way of a review to get me back on track.
I understand the wish to keep a good name that has been hijacked by forces of evil. I have friends who cannot understand why I continue to call myself a conservative and a republican in spite of the fact that the party isn't the party that it was for Eisenhower and prior, it was taken over by narrow minded militants who in most cases ... oh never mind.
The fact that I share views with many of my liberal friends makes me a moderate republican, but the views I have are in my mind very conservative, just not the definition of conservative that is now foisted upon the world.
So, I guess, the women who claim that a man wouldn't hold the door for another man (I have often throughout my life) the people who have weird ideas of what equality is, the people who want, in a very selfish way, the best of both worlds... (my money is my money, I worked for it, by the way, your money is my money too ... Okay, this stands true for any people who are not balanced and just in/with their views.) really have no right to make the title "Feminist" any less attractive than its origin.
I told you, I'm getting confused, there are so many points in this thread to consider, so many directions the statements take my thinking, and it's a relatively short thread.
GOD!, I'm glad I joined ScubaBoard!

Tom
 
No worries, Tom! As a relatively new member myself, I'm also delighted I joined the board - there's a such a diversity of viewpoint, even outside the diving discussions.
 
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