The straw that broke the divers back.

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Breath hold diving shares many commonalities with scuba diving, and it has been stated by a well known and respected medical diving organization that in regards to diving:

"Hyperventilation and panic stress reactions are more likely to occur in the physically unfit".

Your statement that "Fitness is irrelevant in breath holding." is erroneous, in fact fitness probably plays a LARGER role in this form of diving because of the greater physical demands placed on the body.

The other 2 parts of your post that were quoted and I said were disproven were about the number of situps being directly proportional to your chances of survival- this is in fact true, not false as you posted, and panic is more likely in the obese, as stated by the posted medical guidelines, so you're wrong on all 3 counts.

Are you even a certified diver? I can't believe that you do not understand the context of breath holding in this thread. I'm not talking about free diving, I'm talking about holding your breath on ascent.

I guess the reason this thread irritates me so much is because I get the impression that some people believe that the number of sit-ups you do is directly proportional to your chance of survival..... Apparently because you are more likely to panic if you're obese.

So you have disproven that this thread is irritating to me, or that some people believe that the number of sit-ups you do is directly proportional to your chance of survival?

I can assure you that I am irritated, and it looks like you believe that the number of sit-ups you do is directly proportional to your chance of survival.
 
Breath hold diving shares many commonalities with scuba diving

Yeah it involves people, swimming, and water, but that is where the commonalities end, and I have no clue why it is being discussed on this thread?

"Hyperventilation and panic stress reactions are more likely to occur in the physically unfit".

In this case we have no idea if the diver was physically unfit, and the statement above uses the term 'more likely', hardly an absolute. We have no idea if the diver was unfit, and any conclusion is not based on the facts but rather an unconfirmed assumption.

The other 2 parts of your post that were quoted and I said were disproven were about the number of situps being directly proportional to your chances of survival- this is in fact true, not false as you posted, and panic is more likely in the obese, as stated by the posted medical guidelines, so you're wrong on all 3 counts.

This is a rather huge assumption as you have no basis to determine if the diver was in fact physically unfit.

In general terms what you are saying *could* be true, but not in the current context of the discussion. You state a generality, and then base your assumption on that which is not a very logical way to view the incident or draw conclusions.
 
"The best divers" is an subjective concept.

By my definition the best divers are probably mostly military. Guys who are rescue swimmers PJ's, folks who lock out of subs and tap into communications networks. Next are folks who are commercial divers in places like the North Sea and the Golf. Next are some Scientific divers like Pyle, WKKP cavers and some of the folks that move those HIDEF cameras around. Then there are a whole group who you may have dove with without realizing it, but have the tools and mind set to help people they don't even know.

I was involved with a recovery in Chicago. The diver was 400#, and an eyewitness stated he was out of breath carrying his gear to the boat. Had a heart attack in the water. If I was the captain I wouldn't have let him on the boat. Probably would have gotten sued too ah well.

The idea that the recent accidents/deaths can be attributed to poor fitness is a bunch of hooey as there has been zero evidence to support such a statement. With diving accidents, there is rarely ANYTHING to go on other then... drowning.

You aren't serious. I was just reading the 2006 DAN report. And although the data is a bit incomplete, I still think some conclusions can be drawn:

Figure 4.4.2-1 shows the distribution of COD in the judgment of the DAN pathologist who
reviewed each case. Fifty-six cases (64 percent) were designated as drowning; acute heart
condition was cited in 10 cases (8 cardiac dysrhythmia, one myocardial infarction, and one
severe atherosclerosis). Arterial gas embolism was judged as COD in 9 cases (10 percent). COD
was unknown in 10 percent (n=9) because the body was not found (n=4), or COD was not
specified by the medical examiner.

I haven't seen any data stating that fitness doesn't help with Panic. I have looked if anyone has data that indicates fitter people are more likely to panic, I would love to see it.

So I think one can conclude that Panic was involved in at least some of the drowning, and AGE. And one would hope that our medical system is good enough to catch at least some of the cardiac events.

Figure 4.4.5-1 shows the initial triggering event that began the sequence ultimately leading to
death. The most frequent initial event was insufficient gas (14 percent) followed by rough seas
and strong current (10 percent), natural disease (9 percent), entrapment (9 percent), and
equipment problems (8 percent). The triggering event could not be established for 20 percent of
the cases.

Gas, entrapment...fitness might have helped here.

The biggest problem with these stats is they don't look at the data in terms of incidents per dive.

So
Figure 4.3-2 shows the reason for diving. Sixty-three percent of fatalities (n=55) involved pleasure
or sightseeing, 14 percent involved wreck diving, 13 percent were in training, and seven percent
were fishing or collecting game. Two died while retrieving an anchor or lost property. One was
crushed by a boat he was repairing in shallow water. One was sucked into a drain and one
drowned in a strong current while collecting sharks teeth in a river. Ten percent of the cases
occurred during cave diving. Four of these divers were trained and experienced in cave diving,
two were novices, and there was no information on training or previous experience for three
divers. One case occurred in a lake partly covered with ice but not under the ice.

So it looks like certification is almost as dangerous as wreck diving. 13% of fatalities in 2004 were during training. Perhaps we should be doing a better job training our instructors.

On training level:Figure 4.2-3 shows the certification levels and gender for 47 male and 10 female fatalities. Most
had open water or advanced certification. Of six student fatalities, three were males and three
females. One had no formal training.



On BMI:
Figure 4.2-2 shows obesity in the fatality population as measured by body mass index (BMI;
weight in kg divided by height in meters squared). Except for individuals with increased muscle
mass, the level of obesity increases with BMI. BMI data available for 49 fatalities indicated that 26
percent were classified as normal weight (18.5 to <25 kg/m2), and 74 percent were overweight
(BMI 25 to <29.9 kg/m2) or obese (30 kg/m2 or higher).
 
"The best divers" is an subjective concept.

By my definition the best divers are probably mostly military. Guys who are rescue swimmers PJ's, folks who lock out of subs and tap into communications networks.

Earlier this year two of my buddies ran into trouble at about 80ft. They sorted themselves, and began their ascent when something else went wrong. The last part of their ascent was uncontrolled (or at least less controlled than either would have liked). The guy in his early 50's was fine, with zero dcs symptoms while the Navy Rescue Diver in his 20's took a dcs hit and ultimately took a chamber ride. Their profile was as identical as you can get, and they were sharing the same tank on the ride up and yet, the guy with the hardest body, and the least amount of age took the hit. Which one of these guys was the better diver?
 


A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

Please keep things civil- if you find yourself getting irritated walk away and do something else for a while. It is the internet after all- right wrong or psychotic everyone is entitled to their opinion.
 
So you have disproven that this thread is irritating to me, or that some people believe that the number of sit-ups you do is directly proportional to your chance of survival?

I can assure you that I am irritated, and it looks like you believe that the number of sit-ups you do is directly proportional to your chance of survival.

Yes, since it has been concluded beyond a reasonable doubt that the better a diver's fitness level, the greater the chance of survival in a crisis, and since doing more sit-ups increases your fitness level the it naturally follows that the chance of survival in a scuba diving crisis is directly proportional to the number of sit-ups you do on a regular basis.

Are you even a certified diver? I can't believe that you do not understand the context of breath holding in this thread. I'm not talking about free diving, I'm talking about holding your breath on ascent.

My error, you used the term "breath holding" and I thought you were talking about "Breath hold" or "Free" diving".

Fitness is irrelevant in breath holding.

Thanks for clarifying. In fact, since it has been already proven that better fitness decreases panic, it can be concluded that a diver is less likely to panic and bolt for the surface while holding their breath if they are more fit. At the very least I can safely state that fitness is NOT irrelevant when it comes to a diver holding their breath on ascent (which is usually a result of panic).

Yeah it involves people, swimming, and water, but that is where the commonalities end, and I have no clue why it is being discussed on this thread?

As I said, I confused a post that was discussing holding one's breath on ascent with free diving.

In general terms what you are saying *could* be true, but not in the current context of the discussion. You state a generality, and then base your assumption on that which is not a very logical way to view the incident or draw conclusions.

I am only speaking in general terms on this thread regarding fitness level and scuba diving accidents and crisis prevention, I was not referring to any one incident in particular.
 
Navy Rescue Diver[/B][/U] in his 20's took a dcs hit and ultimately took a chamber ride. Their profile was as identical as you can get, and they were sharing the same tank on the ride up and yet, the guy with the hardest body, and the least amount of age took the hit. Which one of these guys was the better diver?

So you are suggesting what?

That the guy who is in the worse physical shape has a better chance of surviving a crisis?

That's absurd.

Given two identical scenarios presented to two different divers, and in one, a diver is very experienced and skilled, but fat and out of shape, and the other one is relatively inexperienced and is a "poor diver" (whatever that means), but in great shape, then perhaps the fat / skilled / experienced guy is going to come out ahead.

Ideally speaking a diver is skilled, experienced, AND in good physical shape. Such a diver would be exponentially more likely to do best in a crisis than anyone else and less likely to suffer a heart attack (which is a commonality in MANY diving accidents), and I can't imagine anyone in their right mind will argue this last point even though I can't give solid "proof" to back it up.
 
None of those stats has any real meaning at all unless you have baseline data about all divers by number of dives and hours in the water. If 70% of fatalities involved an overweight diver but 80% of divers are overweight, then they would be under-represented.

If there is a 0.002% chance that someone in their 50s might just keel over and die for some medical reason, then it wouldn't necessarily be a dive issue if the percentage were the same for 50+ year olds in the water.

What if I told you that 99.9% of fatalities among high school football players happened to boys between 13 and 20? Wow, that high? Maybe people of that age group shouldn't play high school football!
 
So you are suggesting what?

That the guy who is in the worse physical shape has a better chance of surviving a crisis?

That's absurd.

Given two identical scenarios presented to two different divers, and in one, a diver is very experienced and skilled, but fat and out of shape, and the other one is relatively inexperienced and is a "poor diver" (whatever that means), but in great shape, then perhaps the fat / skilled / experienced guy is going to come out ahead.

Ideally speaking a diver is skilled, experienced, AND in good physical shape. Such a diver would be exponentially more likely to do best in a crisis than anyone else and less likely to suffer a heart attack (which is a commonality in MANY diving accidents), and I can't imagine anyone in their right mind will argue this last point even though I can't give solid "proof" to back it up.

You have to stop equating "fat" with "unfit". They aren't the same thing. Most of the fitness related issues in activities is going to have to do with aerobic fitness, muscle tone, and activity levels, not the amount of fat someone carries. If two guys of euql size go to run a race, but one of them does it with a thirty pound pack on and still wins, who is the more fit? And if that thirty pounds is on the body in the form of fat instead of in a pack with the same result?

One disadvantage the overweight diver would have is the need to carry more weight to achieve neutral bouyancy. You may feel weightless in terms of holding position in the water column, but you are still pushing more weight and probably more surface area through the water when you are finning. It has to take more energy to push a 200 pound diver with 20 pounds of weight through the water than a 150 pound diver wearing 15 pounds.
 
None of those stats has any real meaning at all unless you have baseline data about all divers by number of dives and hours in the water. If 70% of fatalities involved an overweight diver but 80% of divers are overweight, then they would be under-represented.

If there is a 0.002% chance that someone in their 50s might just keel over and die for some medical reason, then it wouldn't necessarily be a dive issue if the percentage were the same for 50+ year olds in the water.

What if I told you that 99.9% of fatalities among high school football players happened to boys between 13 and 20? Wow, that high? Maybe people of that age group shouldn't play high school football!

Agreed. If I learned nothing else in graduate school, I certainly learned that you can make your statistics support just about any argument you want. And the subjects in question being people, you need to know a lot more about them than just one fact to draw any conclusions at all.

For instance, BMI is a very poor measure of fitness and is losing popularity amongst obesity experts. Some of the most fit and muscular people on the planet have high BMIs, because muscle weighs a lot more than fat. So a true measure of body fat percentage, which can only be done accurately by submersion techniques, is the only way to get meaningful data about body composition.

It is impossible to interpret the data around deaths related to arrhythmias too. Were these congenital or acquired arrhythmias which were previously known/unknown? Were they CAUSED by a diving related event? Was there any evidence at all of atherosclerotic heart disease in the patients dying from arrhythmias?

Plus, what beesee65 said.

I'd have to know a lot more than just any one of these facts to draw any conclusions.
 
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