Thread Split - Unable to breathe

[Cave Diver]

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

This thread has been split from the http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ne...13624-unable-breathe-nitrox-enriched-air.html thread.

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For the time being, it is being left in the Near Misses & Lessons Learned forum since it does contain some useful advice, even though the bulk of the conversation is no longer relevant to the original topic.

 

[FPDocMatt]

This is not a nitrox issue. That you think it may be doesn't say much for your nitrox class. Or training over all.

Way way harsh, dude.

 

[Jax]

Way way harsh, dude.

Why? Edit: smiley deleted.

Edit: For some reason, someone sees a popcorn smiley as "egging on something", so let me clarify the meaning in what was a simple request for explanation.

Matt Beckwith pronounced "Way harsh, dude" on a respected instructor who made a statement that the OP's training was lacking.

Matt Beckwith is a newbie, and I wanted to know why he would consider such a thing harsh. I wanted to know why pronouncing someone's training as insufficient or lacking would be harsh, when this simple statement of fact might jar the OP into realizing that there is more to this sport then checking the block and jumping in.

Matt has proven to be an inquisitive sort and has been gaining a great deal of information from these forums, as have I. However, if a new person, to whit, Matt, finds a blunt statement of an instructor as "way harsh", I am yet again in Jim's court that the state of training of new divers, especially when it comes to incident analysis, is seriously lacking.

 

[manni-yunk]

Why?

I'll answer.....Jim is VERY knowledgeable and a respected diver/instructor/and now author. Unfortunately - over the last year or so, I feel he has fallen into the "SCUBA ELITIST" know it all type that is overwhelmingly evident in our sport. His reactions seemed harsh and unnecessary. The OP didnt directly blame his situation on Nitrox - He meerly pointed out that it was his first dive on Nitrox. He went over his gear checking - and left enough hints to lead most to believe it was either 1) a tank valve not fully open 2) a temporaary clog on the intake or screen 3) Panic/anxiety or some sort of 1st stage or 2nd stage issue but the OP seemed to rule that out.

Jims response seemed to focus on a scuba elitist "your training sucks and you dont know what you are doing" type angle that isnt called for without clarification of the situation. If the OP went on to blame the situation on Nitrox - then perhaps a recommendation of a better understanding of Nitrox would be in order - but instead....well - you saw.

Just my opinion - sorry if it rubs people the wrong way - but I agree with others........'Harsh' was a perfect explanation.


The OP has less than 24 dives and is asking for advice - thats all. That type of response will discourage others from sharing their issues which, in turn, will make the forum overall less of a learning opportunity for new divers.

 

[Jax]

I'll answer.....Jim is VERY knowledgeable and a respected diver/instructor/and now author. Unfortunately - over the last year or so, I feel he has fallen into the "SCUBA ELITIST" know it all type that is overwhelmingly evident in our sport. His reactions seemed harsh and unnecessary. The OP didnt directly blame his situation on Nitrox - He meerly pointed out that it was his first dive on Nitrox. He went over his gear checking - and left enough hints to lead most to believe it was either 1) a tank valve not fully open 2) a temporaary clog on the intake or screen 3) Panic/anxiety or some sort of 1st stage or 2nd stage issue but the OP seemed to rule that out.

Jims response seemed to focus on a scuba elitist "your training sucks and you dont know what you are doing" type angle that isnt called for without clarification of the situation. If the OP went on to blame the situation on Nitrox - then perhaps a recommendation of a better understanding of Nitrox would be in order - but instead....well - you saw.

Just my opinion - sorry if it rubs people the wrong way - but I agree with others........'Harsh' was a perfect explanation.


The OP has less than 24 dives and is asking for advice - thats all. That type of response will discourage others from sharing their issues which, in turn, will make the forum overall less of a learning opportunity for new divers.

I can see Jim's point, though. We have an OW diver with Nitrox training, and doesn't know one of the most-common "sort of OOA" situations. If I were the OP, I would worry - what else don't I know?

 

[manni-yunk]

I can see Jim's point, though. We have an OW diver with Nitrox training, and doesn't know one of the most-common "sort of OOA" situations. If I were the OP, I would worry - what else don't I know?

Agreed and I understand that the scuba world isnt a hand holding mr nice guy world all the time. Its more the tone I got out of the response. I would think that in this forum, we would do better to encourage that sor tof post so that we can all help each other and learn from each other. In real life - as an instructor - someone can be as direct and strict as they see fit. In here - lets encourage this sort of post so we can all benefit. Jims tone would seem to deter many from such posts.

To each his own style - I guess.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

This is not the basic or new divers forum. Had it been I may have been more warm and fuzzy. The OP posted something that was so basic that the fact that he even considered nitrox as the culprit was a clear indication of a lack of understanding and knowledge of the subject. That he just completed his nitrox class is even more scary. I have read some of his othee posts ans he is not a dumb person. Had the stuff been covered he would have known it. His other posts tell me he pays attention and retains what he was taught. So the fact that he did not know tells me he wasn't taught. Therefore the statement that his training was sub standard stands and I will not apologize for it. Wan't warm and fuzzy on serious.safety issues.like.this. Watch Mr. Rogers.
Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk

 

[Cave Diver]

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

Ahem...

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The purpose of this forum is the promotion of safe diving through the examination and discussion of accidents and incidents; to find lessons we can apply to our own diving.
Accidents, and incidents that could easily have become accidents, can often be used to illustrate actions that lead to injury or death, and their discussion is essential to building lessons learned from which improved safety can flow. To foster the free exchange of information valuable to this process, the "manners" in this forum are much more tightly controlled than elsewhere on the board. In addition to the TOS:

(1) You may not release any names here, until after the names have appeared in the public domain (articles, news reports, sheriff's report etc.) The releasing report must be cited. Until such public release, the only name you may use in this forum is your own.
(2) Off topic posts will be removed and off topic comments will be edited.
(3) No flaming, name calling or otherwise attacking other posters. You may attack ideas; you may not attack people.
(4) No trolling; no blamestorming. Mishap analysis does not lay blame, it finds causes.
(5) No "condolences to the family" here. Please use our Passings Forum for these kinds of messages.
(6) If you are presenting information from a source other than your own eyes and ears, cite the source.
(7) If your post is your hypothesis, theory, or a "possible scenario," identify it as such.
(8) If your post is about legal action that concerns a mishap, use the Scuba Related Court Cases forum.
Thanks in advance,
Rick

Let's get back to the discussion at hand before it gets sidetracked to the point of needing moderator action...

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I just went back and read every post in this thread. Especially my own. At no time did I state that the OP's training "sucked". I called it substandard in my third post and questioned it's thoroughness in my first one.

The first person to accuse me of being "elitist" is the one who said it sucked. If you are going to attribute a position to me use the words I did. Manni-yunk was the one who said it "sucked" - not me.

I also do not see any indication I was attacking the OP. I do hope that I pointed out something that he may need to look at when choosing his next course or training step. As a newer diver he is victim to the old "doesn't know what he doesn't know scenario". Not his fault and I never said it was.

I hope the main thing he takes from this is to thoroughly research any new course he elects to take by interviewing the instructor and asks to see the standards he is supposed to be taught to.

 

[manni-yunk]

I just went back and read every post in this thread. Especially my own. At no time did I state that the OP's training "sucked". I called it substandard in my third post and questioned it's thoroughness in my first one.

The first person to accuse me of being "elitist" is the one who said it sucked. If you are going to attribute a position to me use the words I did. Manni-yunk was the one who said it "sucked" - not me.

I also do not see any indication I was attacking the OP. I do hope that I pointed out something that he may need to look at when choosing his next course or training step. As a newer diver he is victim to the old "doesn't know what he doesn't know scenario". Not his fault and I never said it was.

I hope the main thing he takes from this is to thoroughly research any new course he elects to take by interviewing the instructor and asks to see the standards he is supposed to be taught to.

Actually, Jim, Perhaps you should go back and reread the thread again as it apprears your reading comprehension is lacking. What I posted was that your response was typical of the scuba elitist "your training sucks" type angle that we all to often see. In no way, shape or form was I referring to the OP and I believe that was clear - and to infer such is a distortion of my post.


Your general attitude taken in your posts is what was quesitoned. You can continue to defend your position - thats fine and acceptable. Several on here agreed that in this forum - its better to encourage dialogue and that the tone of your post did the opposite. NEVER, did I say that YOU said the training of the OP "sucked" - nor did I say it....and I would appreciate it if you do not put words in my mouth. Manni Yunk NEVER SAID the OP training sucked.

I believe that all of us can always use and need more training. I myself plan on taking some sort of class or classes every year. That being said - some instructors have a tendancy to ALWAYS think that everything is the fault of someone training or instructor and as such - the tone of their responses is that " your training sucks" - and as such - I was implying that your post was in line with this scuba elitist POV - as opposed to clarrifying what happened - then offering suggestions. Never did I say that you stated specifically that that the training sucks.....nor did I state it.