Told My Jedi Master I'm Ready for 200' - need to start preparing

[ianr33]

OK, I'll ask a troll-like question, just to keep it going.

I have no training whatsoever for diving with any form of helium - recreational, technical or otherwise (although ironically I am certified to blend it). However, when I look at it, I always think - how hard can it really be?

Calculating an END is pretty simple, so you know mix you need to order or blend. And you are always going to run your profiles through deco planning software if you were planning to dive beyond NDLs, so there is no real change in the way you cut your tables and plan your stops. The dive itself is presumably not executed any differently, except perhaps one takes greater care over ascent rates.

I can accept if you do really deep trimix dives, where one has to consider HPNS and nitrogen steps, that would call for further training and guidance, but I have to wonder what additional risks that I am supposedly not trained for. If someone offered me the chance to do a 180' dive on 18/35 instead of on air, would I be safer by declining on the basis I don't have the card?

Totally agree with you.

Have never understood why trimix courses are so expensive or why they are even needed. Plug the numbers into software,follow the plan and don't screw up.

My trimix course was pretty feeble. I basically bought a card. I knew it was going to be that way beforehand and was O.K. with it. Pay to play.

Seems to me what is most important for deep dives is experience and a cool head. I'm not sure either of those come from a course.

If you can do nitrox on line these days why not trimix?

 

[boulderjohn]

If you can do nitrox on line these days why not trimix?

There is no reason the academic portion of a trimix course cannot be taught online--in fact, the academic portion of the UTD courses are taught online now.

But there is a difference. With basic nitrox, once you have the academics finished, you really are done. There is no difference between actually diving with nitrox and diving with air. In both cases, you are diving with one tank within NDLs, and the surface is an option in case of the worst emergency.

With helium, you are assumed to be doing decompression diving, which requires more tanks and consequently more skills. More importantly, in such diving the surface is not an option in an emergency, so you need to learn procedures that allow you to deal with those emergencies at depth.

 

[Thalassamania]

Back in the early days of recreational nitrox many of us were confused by the vehement antagonism expressed by many groups, including PADI, the Cayman Watersportsmans Association and the Cayman Chamber. We had been using nitrox for years and really did not see that it required much more that a short addition to the entry level course to expand on the dangers of acute and chronic high ppO2 exposures.

At the first DEMA sponsored nitrox discussion, I was quoted by the moderator (Bill Hamilton) as having said, tongue in cheek, "... nitrox should never be part of the recreational diving community until recreational courses demonstrated that they could effectively train divers to be able to breathe in, breathe out and control their depth and dive time."

But as soon as ANDI (well, NASDS) demonstrated that there was an extra buck to be made with their "Safe Air" program, it was amazing how fast everyone else jumped on board with new courses and even new agencies popping up almost daily, all to push something that, frankly, should have only resulted in a very short addition existing entry level courses.

I feel much the same way about the current structure of tri-mix diver training, the book work is almost nothing, the water skills work can be substantial, but is basically the same for all decompression diving. I fear that so much of this has come to pass as a result of the intersection of the poor skill level of many entry level course graduates and the agencies' and instructors' vested interests in having more courses to flog.

 

[ianr33]

With helium, you are assumed to be doing decompression diving, which requires more tanks and consequently more skills. More importantly, in such diving the surface is not an option in an emergency, so you need to learn procedures that allow you to deal with those emergencies at depth.

Yes but you learnt all that stuff back in deco proceedures.
Normoxic trimix dives MAY be a bit deeper than Advanced Nitrox type dives and MAY have more deco cylinders and longer deco, but it's an incremental change.

I would never suggest someone start doing deco dives without appropriate training, but really don't see why another $700-$1000 course is needed just to allow a bit of helium.

To be sure I'm playing devils Advocate here to some extent, but I really believe the need for a Trimix course is overstated.

 

[waterpirate]

The single only reason that I am in a trimix program now is so that I can buy mix when I am to far from my fill station to blend it myself. The program I was fortunate enough to get into is more of a long term apprentice ship about conducting dives to 200fsw with 2 stages than the academics of trimix. A docterate level an/dp program if you will.
Eric

 

[boulderjohn]

Yes but you learnt all that stuff back in deco proceedures.

Maybe you did, but we only used one deco gas in DP. On my last dive I used three.

Normoxic trimix dives MAY be a bit deeper than Advanced Nitrox type dives and MAY have more deco cylinders and longer deco, but it's an incremental change.

I would never suggest someone start doing deco dives without appropriate training, but really don't see why another $700-$1000 course is needed just to allow a bit of helium.

To be sure I'm playing devils Advocate here to some extent, but I really believe the need for a Trimix course is overstated.

I think the amount of training required and the cost varies dramatically from agency to agency, and it is why I switched. After completion of DP, TDI requires two courses (trimix and advanced trimix) until you are done. From a roughly similar level of certification, UTD breaks it down to four courses, with a fifth optional. They also require the completion of a lot of experience dives in between those classes--a total of 95 such dives, not counting what happens when you take the classes. That includes 25 deco dives with helium at less than 150 feet, 25 deco dives with helium between 150-200 feet, and 20 dives with helium between 200-250 feet. (25 more training dives to work on skills are also required.) Not only that, you have to have a buddy at the same training level as you to begin a class--you can't start the class without a training buddy no matter how qualified you might be. When I realized how many years of training in would take me to get full trimix certification with UTD, I switched to TDI.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I would not recommend anyone skip training, but I've seen too much bad technical training to spend money on it for myself. Plus I dive a single tank and they want a manifold and doubles and that just ain't happening for me.

 

[Dive-aholic]

I also agree that there are too many trimix courses. Trimix is trimix. While there are some differences between normoxic trimix and hypoxic trimix, I'm not sure it warrants a 4 dive course. But the agencies disagree. Some agencies require even more. As for why trimix courses are so expensive, that is based on logistics. To conduct a hypoxic trimix course within course standards I have to travel to a dive site where I can find a depth of over 230'. I don't advocate going to depth just to be there, so that means there has to be something at that depth. Forty Fathom Grotto doesn't cut it for me. We're going to Eagle's Nest if my students are cave trained or south Florida for the wrecks if they're not cave trained. I also have to pay for my helium. Fills for 4 trimix dives will end up costing a few hundred. Guess who pays for that in a class? Also, I don't do more than one dive a day when I'm diving hypoxic mixes. That means it's a 4 day class minimum. So with travel, gas, and the additional days, the class ends up costing more. The more students I have the less the cost of the class since my costs can be split among them. Standards do allow for credit to be given under certain circumstances. Typically, I only do that with students that have taken their previous decompression courses from me because I know what they've done. I don't know of many other instructors who do that or even know standards allow it.

 

[Avonthediver]

1. I have virtually no knowledge of tec diving. My objective here is to get to the point that I can ask informed questions. For this conversation I am ignoring my last 15+ years of rec diving and listening to those who are more experienced.

2. The shop owner (Jedi Master) was a Navy diver for many years. He was not down there to look at the fish, he was down there to blow things up. The wikipedia list says nothing about military diving.

3. He lives 120 miles away so this forum is more accessible than he is, especially for causal beginner discussion.

4. Thank you in advance for your patience, this is a new road for me and I'm looking forward to hearing what you have to contribute.

You need to find a "Master" near you not Dagobah..

 

[Ste Wart]

Looking back (ah hindsight a wonderful thing). I don't think I would have taken Normoxic Trimix training. Had I known that IANTD allow you to progress from Technical Dive (Extended Range) straight to Hypoxic Trimix that is the route I would have followed. I didn't find any real benefit of learning to use Normoxic as the lectures for full Trimix were so comprehensive anyway. Plus I could have saved myself some money! Not really what you should consider for technical diving, but seeing as I spent the years following my courses mainly doing Extended Range dives I found the Normoxic component was a waste of time. I should have spent money a course that helped me focus without the benefit of helium, instead of learning that later.

DISCLAIMER :I'm not proposing 'deep air'. All of the dives I talk about were done in Egypt. Which means great viz and nice warm water. I happen to like Helium a lot and seeing as I've moved back to the UK will be using it for same depths already mentioned.