Too much lift?

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In light of the information in this thread (thank you!), it seems odd to me that many of the so called "travel BCs" have 30lbs or more of lift. Then again, I'm from the chilly Northeast US so to me "travel" means warm water...

(I know, I know - that's why so many people here recommend a BP/W. It still seems like an odd decision by the BC manufacturers.)
 
... 30lb+ of lift ... It still seems like an odd decision by the BC manufacturers.)

You don't have to pump it up until the overpressure valves pop. With the aircell wrapped around you, there is no taco effect when it's empty. So it's not that big a deal for the diver. For the manufacturer, OTOH, making same-size jacket with different-size bladders gives you a geometric explosion of size combinations and a nightmare every step of the way from production to warranty returns.
 
What motive was assigned, Tobin? You keep saying that and I haven't assigned a thing. Unless pointing out simple facts is pointing out a motive.

Lol, Repeatedly Pete the Pious claims the high ground of "education" and while dismissing manufacturers as only seeking to sell un necessary gear.

The reality is I've a great deal to educate divers about how to calculate required lift than any other manufacture (Of course that isn't saying very much.) I made countless posts on this very site on this very matter.

My approach has always been to educate divers so they can make safe use of gear best suited to a given application. Of course what most of my customers end up buying is *one* wing they can use for warm and cold water diving, they just understand exactly what compromising they are making in doing so.

Your preferred approach is to recommend a "one size" (huge) approach that's safe for the uneducated regardless of application.

Exactly how does that promote a better understanding of the issues at hand?

You have stated several times that Large BCs are the root cause of over weighting.

Wrong. I've consistently made the point that huge BC's allow divers (and far to many dive ops and instructors) to be blissfully ignorant to the hazards of being over weighted, until that day when things go sideways.

About your gear. There's nothing wrong with that, but your goal is to recommend your wing in the size you deem right.

Wrong again. My goal is to provide my customers with the tools to be able to select the wing best suited to their application. I routinely have divers ask something like "well should I buy the Torus 26 or the LCD 30?" My routine response is "I can give you the tools to make that choice, but you have to decide" I'll run example after example, but I don't force feed anybody anything. I will decline a sale if I fear the diver doesn't understand the safe "envelope" for using a specific set of gear.

How many times have you sent these customers to OxyChek? To Hollis? To Dive Rite? Your solution is a particular wing size and if your customer doesn't agree with you, then you send them packing. In that regard, you do send them to these other manufacturers. But I'm going to bet that you recommend your wing first.

Occasionally I have referred customers to others, (typically when they insist on a "comfort harness" or harness and plate pads) but......

We offer 16 standard wings and a few non catalog specials. We offer 9 different back plates. We also offer the only bolt on weight plates I know of. What specifically would any of the other brand names have to offer that we don't WRT to wing type or capacity or plate size or type?

Specifics please.


Tobin
 
"I can give you the tools to make that choice, but you have to decide"
But if they don't agree with your choice, you won't sell it to them.

Tobin, you can keep misrepresenting me all you want. I've laid out the "specifics", but you want to make this personal rather than be objective about it. "Pete the Pious"? Rly? Isn't that kind of name calling a bit juvenile, even for you? Look at your comment about me recommending "Huge" wings. Oh, the drama! Now, define huge. You offer wings from 17 to 57 pounds of lift. Which of your wings would you consider to be huge? Why do you carry huge wings, then if they are so dangerous? If not, can you please provide where I've recommended "huge" wings? As you're so fond of demanding: Specifics, please. You call it education: most of us call it selling. You're educating them about your products, about your backplates and about your wings like any infomercial does. Again, there's nothing wrong with that and I think it's a good thing for the most part. But please, let's call a spade, a spade. You're here to sell and promote Deep Sea Supply and we welcome you. However, I don't educate people JUST to sell them a backplate or a wing. In fact, I teach divers how to use the gear they already have efficiently. I throw education at the problem without expecting a sale at the end of the class. That's the harsh reality of it. Now, can you please stop with the character assassinations?

As I've posted before, the biggest problem with larger wings is wing control: will they taco? Tacos are great to eat, but not so good as a BC. Tobin's answer to this is to keep his wings as small as possible. That's a pretty effective solution for warm water, but it encourages divers to select wings that don't have enough lift if they take them into cold water as well. I've heard divers brag on how small a bladder they are diving and I worry that they are sacrificing safety to get there. You should have enough buoyancy in your BC to accommodate a dry suit failure if you dive with one. FWIW, there's more than one way to prevent tacos and keep sufficient buoyancy. Many other manufacturers use strategic bungees to control their wings so you can have control and sufficient lift. You can now have a wing with more lift and you don't have to worry about creating a BC taco. You can dive easily with or without a drysuit and not compromise your safety. This becomes critical if you start diving non-balanced systems where you don't have ditchable weights.

Finally, it's no doubt that overweighting is a huge problem. I see it here in the Keys all the time. Simply asking divers to use smaller wings is throwing gear at a training problem. We have witnessed too many cold water divers come dive our beautiful warm waters, who failed to adjust their weights to reflect a change in their exposure protection and have died because they were so overweighted. A smaller BC would not have helped them, but education would have probably prevented their demise. They definitely needed less weight diving here in warm water, but they would have also died up north if they had lost the buoyancy from their dry suit. IOW, their BC was too small for Cold Water diving and they used way too much weight for warm water diving.
 
You are both (Tobin, Chairman) saying the same thing from two differing angles, at least in my opinion. For the record DSS will sell any combo of gear you want, just order what you want from the site and stay off the phone.
 
But if they don't agree with your choice, you won't sell it to them.

If I have doubts that the customer understands the safe use of the goods I design and sell I will decline the sale.

Doing otherwise would unethical. Pretty simple concept.

If a diver requests a combo I think is safe, but less than optimal, I will tell them so, but I won't decline the sale.

Tobin
 
For the record DSS will sell any combo of gear you want, just order what you want from the site and stay off the phone.

Not quite true. Very seldom do we simple process online orders for a Back plate and wing without speaking with the customer.

If we get an order that is "right down the middle" we might simply ship, i.e. medium plate, LCD 30 etc. particularly if we have some past records for that customer. Often I can tie recent orders to recent conversations or emails too. If the goods ordered fit the range we discussed we may just ship.

In the vast majority of cases we do contact the customer prior to shipping. Nobody is served by divers getting less than optimum rig, or having to return / exchange goods.

Tobin
 
My experience exactly matches what Tobin has just posted, right down to him calling me and saying that a 15$ part that I ordered online after our conversation was not going to be necessary and confirming that he should delete it from the order. I think a lot of assumptions are being made by two men I admire about each other and my personal experiences don't match those assumptions. I realize that this has been going on much longer than I've been here to witness it but I wish they were each treated with the level of respect that they both richly deserve. FFS Take the high road. It has a nicer view.
 
Make no doubt about it. I admire Tobin. I think his gear is first class and I was one of the early divers of his equipment here on ScubaBoard. You'll find his butt plate on almost every BC I own, including student gear. When I disagree with him, I'm not going to call him "Pious Tobin" though, and I won't take offense when he disagrees with me. But then, I'm not going to simply let him bully me into submission when he does just that to me. I do take offense at being bullied.

Doing otherwise would unethical. Pretty simple concept.
The two people I know who were denied the pleasure of buying your gear, don't feel your ethics had anything to do with it. Both are instructors I not only admire, but I would also let them teach a loved one. They cited ego and stubbornness, which are often confused with ethics. I'm as guilty as anyone, but I have no problem seeing or admitting it.
I think a lot of assumptions are being made by two men
I'm not making any assumptions about Tobin. I am stating unvarnished facts. I know people who've died because they were overweighted and having a smaller wing would not have helped. Education is the key. It will help you decide which BC to use for your diving. It will compel you to get in proper trim with the least amount of weight possible. Education is the key to safe diving: not a fancy BC. A competent diver can make any BC work for them. Hell, I remember seeing divers in North Central Florida diving with milk jugs with great trim and buoyancy. A BC, even if it's covered in gold filigree, won't stop unsafe practices. In other words, it can't promote or cure ignorance, complacency or user error. A BC is as smart or as dumb as the diver wearing it. Thinking that anyone's BC will cure people being overweighted is simply throwing gear at a training problem.
 
Training knowledge and understanding are the most important things in scuba diving. They are key to being properly weighted. Both of you provide that knowledge. Both of you agree that it is critically important. One of you sells gear. The other sells knowledge. It seems like a match made in heaven. Quit baiting each other. Now that we've settled that, let's see if we can agree on deep stops or politics.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

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