Trips when divers aren’t ready/equipped for them

[Marie13]

But I don't think that it's unreasonable for Marie to be clear about who her diving is for, and who is going to make her trip the most fun for her. She's not doing this for a living.

To be honest, Marie, not sure why you want to make it a formal charter. Do all of that stuff offline. Once you get six people that you like to commit to the dive, you all just call up and book your own spot on the same boat. No paper trail to link you at all, and the end result is the same. The main reason we do formal charters is that we can ensure that everyone on a trip will be a club member, an we buy the spots wholesale to make a little something to cover other club activities.

I simply wanted to dive the wrecks I wanted to with some people I know. Period.

As far as I can tell, the charter boats in the Straits of Mackinac/Thunder Bay don't regularly book per seat like the Chicago and Milwaukee boats (plus DRIS' Lake Huron boat out of Sanilac/Harbor Beach). It seems mostly the entire boat gets reserved by a group from either a shop or just a group of folks going together. I'll occasionally see notices on FB for a seat or two being available on a group trip, but there's no guarantee something will be available when you want to go diving. Someone has to put a deposit down to reserve the entire boat for the dates you want. Some of the charter ops have boats that are trailerable that they will move to various locations on the Lakes. First ones to call dibs get choice of dates and locations. That's why my Straits trip is already booked. Good dates fill up fast. These are destination dives. Alpena/Mackinaw City are about 7 hours from the Chicago area. You just don't book a seat at the last minute like I've done with the DRIS boats and drive an hour to the boat.

I've had absolutely no trouble with my Alpena trip which is next weekend (Fri - Sun, mornings). I set the dates back around the end of last year. Got my deposit in. Had absolutely no trouble filling the boat (6 pack). I picked the wrecks, told folks they were on their own for lodgings (gave them the options and campgrounds, too). Got 1/3 deposit from everyone, remainder due June 30. Put all trip $$ in a separate savings account. One guy had to back out several months ago due to work. He told me to put his deposit towards his dive buddy's (close friend) seat. We didn't need another person as the boat just needed 4 to go out. But someone else had indicated interest after trip was already full, so the one spot was filled within a day after person dropping out.

I'm not going to vet divers now, but if my spidey-senses get tingling, I'll simply tell them no.

 

[Jack Hammer]

Unfortunately, I'm all too familiar with the people who want to go to 130', or even 145', on an al80. A lot of them surface after just a few minutes on the bottom without ever getting into deco and are sadly perfectly ok with those dives and, even worse, believe themselves safe. I think its poor planning, and get not wanting them on a charter you'd put together.

Unfortunately 130' is a fringe depth that is not inviting for most local full tech divers and a little too deep for most local rec divers. But Dont worry, it will get better as you meet more people. There are also a lot of great divers on the Canadian side to consider. Also, the Chicago Scuba meetup has some very experienced divers. Not sure if you've listed it with them.

 

[doctormike]

I simply wanted to dive the wrecks I wanted to with some people I know. Period.

Right, so unless you want to (a) get some sort of financial benefit in terms of a free seat or a wholesale boat rate, (b) exert some sort of control over the group, or (c) brand it as a club dive and draw from a larger but unspecified group, you really don't need to organize it as a group charter in this way if you want to avoid some of the concerns raised by you and others.

Of course, this assumes you identify your divers and get them to commit far enough in advance that the boat is available - that takes some planning. But if six of you commit to diving together, you are diving together. You call the captain and grab six seats. You don't need to generate any sort of liability for yourself, and you don't need to let anyone join that you don't like. You don't need to get into explanations about NDLs and redundant gas and conditions - you are a bunch of friends who want to dive together. Like every other party, once you get past pre-school, you don't need to invite everybody!

 

[Marie13]

Right, so unless you want to (a) get some sort of financial benefit in terms of a free seat or a wholesale boat rate, (b) exert some sort of control over the group, or (c) brand it as a club dive and draw from a larger but unspecified group, you really don't need to organize it as a group charter in this way if you want to avoid some of the concerns raised by you and others.

Of course, this assumes you identify your divers and get them to commit far enough in advance that the boat is available - that takes some planning. But if six of you commit to diving together, you are diving together. You call the captain and grab six seats. You don't need to generate any sort of liability for yourself, and you don't need to let anyone join that you don't like. You don't need to get into explanations about NDLs and redundant gas and conditions - you are a bunch of friends who want to dive together. Like every other party, once you get past pre-school, you don't need to invite everybody!

In your scenario, how do you deal with deposit if charter op only wants to deal with one person for the $$ rather than 6?

 

[doctormike]

In your scenario, how do you deal with deposit if charter op only wants to deal with one person for the $$ rather than 6?

Well, the six of you chip in for the deposit and one of you sends it, if you are sill trying to do a group, but I wasn't even suggesting that. I probably don't understand all the details about how your captains operate, so forgive me if I'm missing something. Here is how I was envisioning it.

The dive boat posts a schedule at some point in advance of the season. Some of the dives are club charters or shop charters, so divers contact the club or shop for spots. Others are open boats, meaning that the captain sells the spots directly, either to a private group or to individual divers. You get your group together, make whatever decisions you want to make among yourselves, and then you just buy six spots. I guess the issue would be if the captain would let you pick the wreck as a consensus of paying passengers - that's common here.

Are you saying that the captain won't sell spots to individual divers? If I wanted to dive on that boat, I couldn't just call and buy a spot or two?

I mean, I'm sure that there are logistical issues that I don't understand, but I was just saying that you don't necessarily need to (a) open yourself to liability or (b) include people that you don't want just because you are diving as a group of friends....

 

[Wookie]

I'm thinking that this is all unnecessarily complex. The boat is offering a trip, Marie and her friends want to go on the trip. Marie wants to dive with certain friends, but not others. Marie puts the word out that she will be on XXX boat on YYY weekend/day, does anyone want to go? When her chosen 5 say yes, they all give the captain a deposit, and off they go.

If the charter op insists on dealing with one person, it's because they are transferring some portion of the pain in the butt to a third party. Which is fine if you understand and are willing to accept the pain in the butt.

 

[BDSC]

Right, so unless you want to (a) get some sort of financial benefit in terms of a free seat or a wholesale boat rate, (b) exert some sort of control over the group, or (c) brand it as a club dive and draw from a larger but unspecified group, you really don't need to organize it as a group charter in this way if you want to avoid some of the concerns raised by you and others.

So here is what I do when I charter an entire liveaboard. I will actually use a scuba travel wholesaler to book the boat for me. I happen to use Scuba Travel Ventures out of California. So they have the actual charter and not me but I decide who goes on the trip as STV recognizes me as the "group leader" and I use that term loosely. My role is to really get the ball rolling on a trip like deciding where and when to go. I typically collect the money for deposits etc and then send that money to STV.

I have been putting together trips for several years now and the question of liability has come up between my friends and I so I went to an attorney to get his opinion on things. The attorney we spoke with said that while anyone can pretty much sue for whatever, as long as I am not making money on this and the actual charter is in the name of STV. I "should" be OK.

I don't make a dime from putting together trips. I take the total cost of the charter and divide that amount by how many folks are going so we all pay the exact same thing. I don't get a free spot nor any type of discount.

 

[Marie13]

@BDSC

Day boat not liveaboard

@doctormike

Check out post 61. Explains how things work up here. You want specific dates, you book months ahead. This op is pretty well booked for the following year by October.

 

[MrVegas]

Unfortunately 130' is a fringe depth that is not inviting for most local full tech divers and a little too deep for most local rec divers.

I've read this thread through precisely for this reason. I won't be doing anything that deep for at least a few years (if ever), but when you look at the Great Lakes wrecks, there are a fair number that seem interesting or popular in the 80-130 range. (That can be a wide range, I know.) The combination of deep and cold makes me wonder what these dives look like from the perspective of someone that wants to check out these wrecks, but is a "recreational" diver (no decompression) and probably won't be carrying doubles (but likely a pony). What are the typical profiles and gases on these dives? (My apologies if I am starting a major debate -- I am really just curious what people typically do or if there is no "typical.")

 

[tomfcrist]

Unfortunately 130' is a fringe depth that is not inviting for most local full tech divers

I have never experienced a diver that wouldn’t hit an awesome wreck just because it wasn’t at a certain depth. Maybe I’m sheltered, IDK.

Most of the folks I dive with would be just as happy doing an hour at 130’ as they would doing 20 minutes at 300’.