Trips when divers aren’t ready/equipped for them

[Wookie]

Going to talk with a lawyer friend of mine. A friend of mine who has organized trips (as an individual) made sure to spell out the specifics of conditions that might be encountered (wrecks, depths, water temp, current, etc) with any recommended gear from the dive op (such as redundancy) and handed out that to everyone who was interested before deposits were put down, also listed such thugs as dates, cost, deposit amounts/deadlines, etc. Everyone had to sign it - that way they couldn’t pretend they didn’t get it.

I talk to my insurance company's lawyer about things like this. They have all kinds of helpful advice. After all, they are the folks who will open their wallet in the event the unfortunate happens.

 

[KenGordon]

I think I am also asking if you are sure you are competent to judge other divers’ abilities and equipment as fit for the dive. By vetting you are claiming that you are and so start to assume some responsibility.

Managing diving is a skill of it’s own.

Here skippers do not ask any of this stuff. Sometimes they may want to see a nitrox card to supply gas but that is unusual. Some shops ask too.

The expectation is that divers are responsible for their own judgement. They are trained to dive within their training and experience. Those in charge of the boat cannot possible police that.

If you are going to vet then you ought to do it on a clear basis so you can explain to people what the problem is and what they need to do to over come it. So you could say in the invite “redundancy required, dives more than depth X within the last Y months” sort it of thing.

In the BSAC system that comes down to being compliant with “Safe Diving”. However the Dive Manager is a formal role and there is 3rd party insurance.

Another approach is only to invite people who you expect to be able.

I often have to fill spaces on boats by advertising them on forums and Facebook. They know the dive and they choose to come. That is their call and I don’t give them advice as to whether they are up to it.

Another problem is that it is not uncommon to discover that somebody who comes over as a serious and competent diver turns out not to be so good.

 

[Wookie]

I think I am also asking if you are sure you are competent to judge other divers’ abilities and equipment as fit for the dive. By vetting you are claiming that you are and so start to assume some responsibility.

Managing diving is a skill of it’s own.

Here skippers do not ask any of this stuff. Sometimes they may want to see a nitrox card to supply gas but that is unusual. Some shops ask too.

The expectation is that divers are responsible for their own judgement. They are trained to dive within their training and experience. Those in charge of the boat cannot possible police that.

If you are going to vet then you ought to do it on a clear basis so you can explain to people what the problem is and what they need to do to over come it. So you could say in the invite “redundancy required, dives more than depth X within the last Y months” sort it of thing.

In the BSAC system that comes down to being compliant with “Safe Diving”. However the Dive Manager is a formal role and there is 3rd party insurance.

Another approach is only to invite people who you expect to be able.

I often have to fill spaces on boats by advertising them on forums and Facebook. They know the dive and they choose to come. That is their call and I don’t give them advice as to whether they are up to it.

Another problem is that it is not uncommon to discover that somebody who comes over as a serious and competent diver turns out not to be so good.

Even on this coast we did not dictate required equipment on dives. We required that the diver be certified for the dive, we briefed the dive site, we prohibited doubles (just for the size of the boat, they were allowed on some trips), and if you used your pony, we considered it to be because of poor gas management and followed our out of gas procedures, which were designed to protect us. We never limited bottom times, max depths were self limiting, and required that you come back with an air reserve, but not a limit of that reserve.

Anyone who requires a gear configuration is assuming the safety for that diver. Seems like a bad precedent to set to me.

 

[The Chairman]

I'm assuming marie is going thru this trouble of organizing the trip with strangers to get a free ticket.

Organizers usually require some sort of professional certification and liability insurance to qualify unless it's a large group. If you can be taken as a guide, you should have such insurance. Even then, you're increasing your exposure when you start making the rules. I'm certainly no lawyer, but I've been involved with SB trips for 16 years now, more if you include mega-dives. I have learned to keep a low profile, don't handle any money and let the charter/dive op make and enforce any rules.

Anyone who requires a gear configuration is assuming the safety for that diver. Seems like a bad precedent to set to me.

This. This x100. This x1000.

 

[oly5050user]

Organizers usually require some sort of professional certification and liability insurance to qualify unless it's a large group. If you can be taken as a guide, you should have such insurance. Even then, you're increasing your exposure when you start making the rules. I'm certainly no lawyer, but I've been involved with SB trips for 16 years now, more if you include mega-dives. I have learned to keep a low profile, don't handle any money and let the charter/dive op make and enforce the rules.


This. This x100.

As Pete mentioned you should have liability insurance if organizing any kind of trip . Need to be at a minimum need divemaster certification to get liability insurance. Anyone at any time can be sued if there is an incident. Nice to have insurance if the s$&@ hits the fan.

 

[Wookie]

As Pete mentioned you should have liability insurance if organizing any kind of trip . Need to be at a minimum need divemaster certification to get liability insurance. Anyone at any time can be sued if there is an incident. Nice to have insurance if the s$&@ hits the fan.

Some folks find that their homeowners will cover them. Once. I'm trying to remember who my friend was who did exactly this, their homeowners covered them and they had to sign an exclusion that they would never lead a trip or certify as a dive leader.

 

[The Chairman]

If you notice, even here on ScubaBoard we don't vet for "truth" except for two conditions. Once we set ourselves to be the arbiter of the truth, we open ourselves up to liability. Ergo, we only moderate for friendliness and whether a post is on topic. Even then, I've been sued for stuff others have said on SB. The two conditions? Encouraging peeps to learn scuba without an instructor or to learn overhead without an instructor will never be allowed here. Other than that it's dive and let dive as far as staff is concerned.

 

[Wookie]

The two conditions? Encouraging peeps to learn scuba without an instructor or to learn overhead without an instructor will never be allowed here. Other than that it's dive and let dive as far as staff is concerned.

Both of which are industry standards. I will happily go in front of a jury and explain a restriction based on industry standards, even in an industry where standards are, let us say, poorly defined. I can't possibly explain to a jury why I placed restrictions beyond industry standards.

It's why we never required an advanced card.

 

[The Chairman]

It's why we never required an advanced card.

It's why I never tried to interfere with your job. Your boat, your rules and Frankly: your liability. It's what you do and I have no delusions that I could do a better job or make better decisions. I can't tell you how many people try to tell me how I'm doing SB all wrong. I'm not going to make that mistake with other pros and their businesses.

 

[doctormike]

I'm the dive chair of our local dive club, and I set up the charter schedule. We are fortunate to have two excellent attorneys on our board who have over the years helped guide the board's consensus and guidelines on this issue, and to draft our club liability waiver.

We don't vet divers as a club, for the reasons outlined above

We don't require equipment as a club, for the reasons outlined above

Every dive boat captain in our area has a list of required equipment - usually redundant gas source for single tank divers, signaling devices, etc...

My operative experience is that no one really wants to get hurt. There is so much logistical overhead of diving in our area, new divers really are pretty receptive to unofficial mentoring. Yeah, you get the occasional warm-water only technical diver who expects to just jump in off the NYC coast and is arrogant about it, but those people are few and far between. Usually, it's someone who has really been bitten by the bug and who want's to do it right. Can you do a 130 foot dive in cold murky water on a single tank for 14 miserable minutes? Yeah, many of us have. And it clearly gets better. But I don't think that it's unreasonable for Marie to be clear about who her diving is for, and who is going to make her trip the most fun for her. She's not doing this for a living.

To be honest, Marie, not sure why you want to make it a formal charter. Do all of that stuff offline. Once you get six people that you like to commit to the dive, you all just call up and book your own spot on the same boat. No paper trail to link you at all, and the end result is the same. The main reason we do formal charters is that we can ensure that everyone on a trip will be a club member, an we buy the spots wholesale to make a little something to cover other club activities.