Two fatalities in Monterey

[mdb]

The so called "buddy system" or OOA drills, whatever you would like to call it, does not always work so well.

Panic and real life OOA situations can/do change things quite dramatically.

The person doing "drills" turns into a panicked mess, the trained OW student makes an effort to help and cannot.

Two very young men, 17 yrs. old died in shallow water. How they died we may never know. What we can take from this tragic event is an effort to prevent another similar accident.

I have talked to several people today in Reno and Carson City Nevada. The local divers are talking about a dual drowning as one brave lad tried to save another.

We may never know. Perhaps we can learn something from this. The posts, so far, have been respectful and thoughtful.

 

[vshearer]

The controlled, swimming CESA is even a bad option that can be trained around.

And if this wasn't true then cave diving and/or technical diving would just be outright suicidal (try a CESA in a cave? ooops...)

But they were not in a cave, or technical diving. They were relatively shallow and from reports the tanks were empty, so they could not inflate. A perfectly good air supply only 60' away. Seems to me only one option.

Drop weights.

Flare.

Keep airway open.

 

[Lobzilla]

But they were not in a cave, or technical diving. They were relatively shallow and from reports the tanks were empty, so they could not inflate. A perfectly good air supply only 60' away. Seems to me only one -LAST- option.

Drop weights.

Flare.

Keep airway open.

I fixed that above. LAST option, not first (situational awareness wrt gas supply), not second (controlled air-sharing ascent), not third (CESA) - LAST.

 

[Blue Sparkle]

They were relatively shallow and from reports the tanks were empty, so they could not inflate. A perfectly good air supply only 60' away. Seems to me only one option.

Drop weights.

Flare.

Keep airway open.

I fixed that above. LAST option, not first (situational awareness wrt gas supply), not second (controlled air-sharing ascent), not third (CESA) - LAST.

But Lobzilla, if their tanks were empty (and they were OOA in lungs too), how could they profit from either monitoring their gas (empty) or air-sharing (no air to share). I agree that those would have been advantageous prior to the point that vshearer describes, but I don't see how they could be utilized in the scenario he posed.

 

[np251]

This is my third attempt in the last hour to share my thoughts with the board on this tragic accident. Some of you may well know that myself and KLJ witnessed this incident from the beach and had direct contact with the Carson City group on the friday evening. Ive purposefully avoided this thread for most of the day in an attempt to temper my sadness so all i can manage at this point is to send my most heartfelt wishes to the families and friends involved.

 

[Ken Kurtis]

Not to beat this thing into the ground (and I think there are some really good points being made here) but . . .

The worry is not the stupid weight belt. The bad news is the uncontrolled, rapid ascent following the ditching.

Yes and no. The ascent doesn't have to be uncontrolled. "Fast" does not always equal "uncontrolled".

The ascent may or may not be rapid. You could flare to create drag and slow yourself down somewhat. If you're at a shallow depth to begin with, it may not be all that rapid. And there may be things along the way up to help you slow down or even control your ascent rate. In CA, if you're doing this along the edge of a kelp bed, you can grab the kelp, which is anchored to the bottom, and control your ascent.

(Caveat: Yes, it's an advanced technique and the odds of a panicked diver grabbing the kelp and not getting entangled are probably slim but the point is that it might be possible and we shouldn't always think that rapid ascent = uncontrolled = embolsim = death.)

To that last point, deco issues aside, strictly from an embolising standpoint, I can go up pretty much as fast as possible and - as long as I am exhaling all the expanding gas in my lungs - I shouldn't embolise.

One AGE can really spoil your day.

Yes, but it's treatable. You can be taken to a chamber, treated, and survive (and even dive again). Drowning, however, is pretty final and will ruin your current day and the rest of your days that would have come.

The point of this is not to say that your thought is wrong. But so often we think of these things as either/or and they're not. Embolsim is bad and drowning is bad. Avoid them both. But . . .

Given a choice betweem the two, I'd prefer to take my chances of possibly embolising on my way to the surface during a weightless ascent rather than hoping rescuers find me on the bottom in no more than 6 minutes from the time I stop breathing.

- Ken

 

[Lobzilla]

But Lobzilla, if their tanks were empty (and they were OOA in lungs too), how could they profit from either monitoring their gas (empty) or air-sharing (no air to share). I agree that those would have been advantageous prior to the point that vshearer describes, but I don't see how they could be utilized in the scenario he posed.

Like Lamont, I just wanted to caution against unnecessary weight-ditching and the potential negative consequences.

But lets look at what OOG really means. To make this more tangible, I just sucked an Aluminum 80 down to a vaccum

Even with a fully balanced reg set (SP MK17/G250V) I had at least 8 full, albeit slow, breath left from the first OBVIOUS sign of a problem - on the surface. I will repeat that at depth by isolating my doubles and will report the results. In any case, that looks like a lot of meaningful time IF you identify the problem and have a plan. Problem is that most folks who run into that pickle do not have plan.

I remember getting yelled at by my OW instructor when I discussed with my buddy that we should get familiar with running a tank dry. Not because we planned on doing this later but just to know how it feels and what to do if it ever happens. I had a tolerant day and understood his concern about a 6'6" guy drowning in a 5' pool and the hassle of a VIP but I am also selfish enough wanting to cover my rear end with as much 'what if' scenarios as possible. So we ran the experiment when nobody was looking; with an unbalanced reg set that gives you half an eternity of warning.

A very similar challenge approached in a different 'world': When I transitioned to airplanes with complex fuel systems, my instructor would purposely close a valve and let me deal with the sputtering engine while his rear end was in the same danger than mine. That was not some twisted macho thing. It was a powerful reminder to keep my eyes on the gas gauges and an assurance that even if you are about to run out of gas there are still options - if you have a plan.

WARNING: Please do not try stuff like this at home... Look at Bubbletrouble's and CaveDiver's threads where they go through OW 'what if' scenarios.

 

[Lobzilla]

This is my third attempt in the last hour to share my thoughts with the board on this tragic accident. Some of you may well know that myself and KLJ witnessed this incident from the beach and had direct contact with the Carson City group on the friday evening. Ive purposefully avoided this thread for most of the day in an attempt to temper my sadness so all i can manage at this point is to send my most heartfelt wishes to the families and friends involved.

Sorry, most of the discussion here belonged in different threads.

I hope that someone, somewhere has the opportunity to learn from this tragedy.

In the last 22 years of flying I have lost 3 close friends to fatal accidents. By leaving messages that allow others to stay in this world a little longer, they did not die in vain.

 

[Blue Sparkle]

Sorry, most of the discussion here belonged in different threads.

Do you think so? I thought that A & I was for discussion of, and learning from, accident scenarios (or possible scenarios that are closely related to the accident). I may be wrong though as I am not an old hand here.

Then I thought the "Passings" forum was for condolences and more personal thoughts.

Mind you, I don't think there is a "Passings" thread for these boys (unless I just didn't see it), and I am in no way discouraging people (such as np251) from posting their thoughts or feelings here - especially when people were on-scene; but just, I thought that here it was perfectly appropriate to discuss scenarios and diving technicalities related to the accident/incident, in order to learn from them.

Granted, a few posts may have been somewhat tangential, but I don't think I would say "most" were.

If I'm off base on this mods please correct me.

 

[np251]

Do you think so? I thought that A & I was for discussion of, and learning from, accident scenarios (or possible scenarios that are closely related to the accident). I may be wrong though as I am not an old hand here.

Im mixed on this. It can be useful and i have read extensively from such reports in the past. There are usually some really good nuggets of information there- but the first week or so, its all assumptions and scenario building, unless a first person account is given very early on. Long run, they tend to get more constructive and useful- maybe not so much in a 2-day old thread where only 2 or 3 facts are known, though.

Im holding in several comments that i just cant formulate in my head- related to this incident, but not involving the divers or the group. More of a SR procedures question. Probably be a couple days before i feel like i can post objectively and it wont be here.

edit- im sorry if this sounds like im trying to stop discussion here. This has actually shook me pretty bad so i apologise if ive come off as being argumentative or rude. Its not my intention.