Unacceptable Instructor Behaviors...

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Interesting post. Thank you for sharing your experience with other newer divers!

You also offered a good example of how an instructor exercised professional responsibility, in making the observations that he did, and alerting you to the issue.

I imagine it was a challenge for the instructor - unfortunately, he was not in a position to advise you at the time of sale

Yes it was an expensive lesson well learned.

As it happens, the OW/AOW instructor I spoke about is actually the owner of the shop I did my course at. Even with that in mind, I have only ever received unbiased information from him - he would rather you get what you need (sometimes even if it means a missed sale - he will say that we don't sell xxx but I know where you can get it).

He had nothing to gain financially by making his observations regarding the gear I had as they don't sell BP&W (or didn't at the time) but he did tell be where to buy the correct wing/accessories for it. He has been paid in other ways for that help though (have bought him quite a number of beers on nights out!):cheers:

Yes he is there to make money but he is up front and will happily say "I have xxx but that's not right for you". He has earned my trust so many times by that attitude.
 
While this thread could easily turn into a focused discussion of LDS sales practices, it may be useful to remember how we started down this path of discussion.

One of the (several) roles that scuba instructors working for / within a shop may be expected to perform is that of a facilitator of shop business, specifically gear sales. And, a critical question is what represents ethical and professional conduct on the part of that instructor in performing that role.

Yes, I believe that shops in some cases opt for encouraging the purchase of the most profitable (for them), highest margin gear by their customers. I do not believe that is good business practice. And, since newer divers are very often the largest group of purchasers, those shops are giving that encouragement to divers perhaps least knowledgeable about what constitutes 'value', even appropriate functionality. At the very same time, quite often the person doing the selling is acting on the basis of limited knowledge, and may truly that the product they are selling is clearly superior to others. I won't assign motives to individuals I don't know, only offer possibilities.

The issue in the context of this thread is what role does an Instructor play, and what is their professional responsibility.

Certainly, an Instructor who performs as northernone outlined in an earlier post :
northernone:
How do we feel about instructors using fear and their position of authority as a professional to push equipment sales for which they make a commission on without declaring their financial interest behind their recommendations?
fails to rise to the expected level of professionalism, in fact to the 'duty of care' that can reasonably be expected. Instructors do hold a position of perceived authority and must use the privilege of such a position appropriately, lest they risk losing it. That doesn't mean that they cannot or should not:

a) encourage divers to purchase their own gear,
b) offer specific suggestions for gear purchase and configuration, or
c) facilitate LDS sales where they sincerely believe that the student / customer is being honestly and appropriately served.

Almost everyone, in every walk of life, engages in some form of selling, some effectively, some poorly. There is nothing wrong with 'selling' when you believe in what you are selling. There is nothing wrong with a dive professional selling. When I work with a student, I am 'selling':
  • I am selling them on a belief system regarding diving and dive safety (e.g. good buoyancy and trim, proper dive planning, etc.);
  • I am selling them on a way of diving that is respectful of the environment in which they dive;
  • I am selling them on working with me in future training. I would rather they train with me than someone else who might be a 'bad' instructor;
  • I am selling them on gear and gear configurations that I sincerely believe are optimal.
  • And, I am selling them on the services of the shop I am affiliated with. (I have to believe in that shop, or I wouldn't be working there.)
Frankly, it would be a violation of my duty of care if I took the position, 'I will not discuss gear purchases, or future training, etc., etc. with you, because I am an Instructor and I don't do that.' In doing that I would be leaving them to make uninformed, or poorly informed decisions (I do have more experience, probably far more knowledge, than they do, after all). I would be leaving them to potentially being taken advantage of by others who might not see a 'duty of care' responsibility.

So, I would like to see the discussion continue to focus on what constitutes unacceptable behavior on the part of an instructor. And, part of that discussion necessarily involves consideration of 'selling'.
 
So, I would like to see the discussion continue to focus on what constitutes unacceptable behavior on the part of an instructor. And, part of that discussion necessarily involves consideration of 'selling'.

Doesn't it basically come down to honest disclosure of motivations influencing recommendations? Actually, the same is true even without employer incentives. We all have bias based on limited experience. It is one thing to say "my regulator has been very reliable". That isn't the same as saying "my regulator is the safest you can buy", implying that other regulators could be unsafe to an apprehensive student.
 
Doesn't it basically come down to honest disclosure of motivations influencing recommendations?
Yes, it does.
Akimbo:
It is one thing to say "my regulator has been very reliable". That isn't the same as saying "my regulator is the safest you can buy", implying that other regulators could be unsafe to an apprehensive student.
Yep.

I have no trouble telling students that I prefer Apeks regs - their first stages seem heavier (although I admit I haven't actually weighed them), they breathe well at depth, they are an established company, etc. I encourage students to consider Apeks regs - which my current shops both carry. And, I get no financial benefit from them buying Apeks, or from the shop. I also tell them that I don't have any evidence that they are better than other brands, only that I know they are good, from personal experience.
 
Hi everyone - I'll begin by saying that I'm new to diving, even newer to ScubaBoard, and this is the first thread I've read in its entirety since I signed up last night. Thanks for the info and opinions, already.

I'm in an unusual and fortunate position in that the only instructor I've had so far is a long-time friend of mine who finally convinced me to learn to dive earlier this year. He and I are both teachers, and we've had many "good teacher / bad teacher" talks through the years, so I got what I expected from him: quality, individualized instruction. But it was good for me to see how he dealt with others in my OW group, students who were younger and had only known him for a short time in a more formal context (student-teacher).

In regards to the original topic - what makes good instruction - I could go on at length, but for now I'll just put in another plug for telling stories. Most of my students, and most people in general, remember stories more easily than abstract concepts. Putting together hands-on practice in the water (which I assume is a given) with stories that illustrate why we do this, or what happens if we don't, helps just about everyone remember and understand skills and concepts better. And my friend has plenty of stories; he's been diving in lots of nice as well as sketchy situations through the years.

As for the promotion or sales of gear, he loaned me the gear I needed to get started and I've been able to see already some things that work (or that I prefer) better than others. He does not work for a shop, so that's not an issue for either of us, and we've been able to have good discussions about the value of, for example buying online vs. buying at the local LDS (for the record, we do both).
 
but for now I'll just put in another plug for telling stories. Most of my students, and most people in general, remember stories more easily than abstract concepts.

That is true in my experience. This story sticks with me to this day, but more important is the underlying lesson that has helped keep me and my dive mates alive for nearly 50 years: Wreck Penetration
 
but for now I'll just put in another plug for telling stories. Most of my students, and most people in general, remember stories more easily than abstract concepts. Putting together hands-on practice in the water (which I assume is a given) with stories that illustrate why we do this, or what happens if we don't, helps just about everyone remember and understand skills and concepts better.
Good post, and thank you for adding to the knowledge base.

I am particularly pleased with this comment, because I suffer from telling stories when I teach. Usually they are positive outcome stories, often they are self-deprecating, to reinforce with students that we all make mistakes at times, we just need to learn from them and not (hopefully) repeat them. A former shop owner employer (and close friend and dive buddy) used to describe my teaching as 'Story time with Bill'. :) OK, maybe I go on a bit too much with the stories.

But, thanks for the post.
 
Only using a brand or brands and types of equipment mandated by the employer without full disclosure.
When I worked for Goodyear, I only drove on Goodyear tires. I believed they were the safest, so I sold them as the safest. I earned a spiff on each and every tire I sold. FWIW, I still believe that Goodyear produces the safest tire on the road and they will always be my first choice. I clearly remember the five steps to a tire sale
  1. Greet
  2. Qualify
  3. Recommend
  4. Justify (Features & Benefits)
  5. ASK FOR THE EFFIN SALE!!!
As long as they don't go all Trump and make false claims, then it's caveat emptor. Mind you, I don't work for a shop for many of the reasons cited, but I don't see capitalism as inherently unethical. It's the height of naivety to go into a ScubaPro shop and expect the instructor to push Mares. It's up to the consumer to do their homework ahead of time.
Above all, telling their students to NEVER look at ScubaBoard is completely inexcusable. :D
There is a place reserved in hell for these guys! :D :D :D
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

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