Unacceptable Instructor Behaviors...

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

Personally I see a bit of a disconnect here. It is all well and good for an instructor to drill into a diver that they own their own dive and blame the diver for not calling something they were not comfortable with.

But if none of the instructors the new and inexperienced diver comes into contact with don't do that, why is it unreasonable to expect the diver to trust that the instructor knows better than them and to follow along?

I don't think blame is a good thing. I think that if a new diver doesn't call something they were comfortable with and I as their instructor find out later, I use that as a teaching opportunity.

One time I was to meet up with a diver I certified and he was very apologetic as he didn't feel well. My response?

I thanked him. We went to eat instead. I didn't waste that opportunity to reinforce the notion that it is perfectly acceptable to call a dive, even when everyone is ready to go.

I expect new divers to trust their instructor, even when they shouldn't. I did and my ow instructor is dangerous and has no business teaching (he now teaches at a school that's had a few training deaths in the last few years).
 
The responsibility for choosing an appropriate site for your class rests completely on the instructor.

I disagree.

Disagree because... students should choose the dive sites for a class? Maybe I'm just one of a kind, but I always handled the selection of appropriate dive sites for my classes.

I didn't say the responsibility to decide whether or not the student dives completely belongs to the instructor, only that the instructor has to choose appropriate dive sites for the class.

Students should always be given the option to skip a dive if they don't like it. But instructors should do everything they can to avoid choosing sites and conditions that would make students want to skip the dive.
 
If an instructor chooses an inappropriate site, you can bet your bottom dollar the instructor will be (appropriately) blamed in the ensuing trial should an accident occur. There is no way on God's green Earth attorneys will even try to shift the blame to the student for failing to call the dive.
 
My students and I discuss where to dive as well as when.
How is a new student supposed to make an informed decision as to what constitutes an appropriate site without placing their trust in what the instructor says? Sorry, but this still sounds circular. Although I do think it is great that you do, I don't see how it addresses the issue of (possibly) misplaced trust.
 
How is a new student supposed to make an informed decision as to what constitutes an appropriate site without placing their trust in what the instructor says? Sorry, but this still sounds circular. Although I do think it is great that you do, I don't see how it addresses the issue of (possibly) misplaced trust.
In my area there is a finite set of dive sites that all dive shops use. Which are what I use as well.
 
In my area there is a finite set of dive sites that all dive shops use. Which are what I use as well.
Again, though, that does not address the dilemma of students trusting their instructors when they shouldn't. They quite often not only don't know better, they cannot be expected to know better. That is why they are with an instructor in the first place.

I think that it is great to hear about the affirmative things that good instructors do to ensure the safety and quality of the training they provide. Good instructors that can be trusted are not the issue.
 
How is a new student supposed to make an informed decision as to what constitutes an appropriate site without placing their trust in what the instructor says?
It's really what the entire class is all about: knowing your limitations. This is like when I first suggested that students never needed to kneel during class. Many didn't believe me. It was just too far fetched. Unfortunately, you just can't "Get It" until you teach it. I was even called a liar then until people saw just how simple it was when they actually tried it. It's not "circuitous" if you're actually teaching them how to make those judgements and really including them in the dive planning.

Recently two students and I agreed to go to Royal Springs for their first OW dives. While I can normally see to the bottom, I don't think I could see past 6 inches and they had just driven 3+ hours to get there. Before we gear up for these first dives, we have a very detailed discussion about dive conditions, including currents, waves, visibility, other possible water hazards and their believed ability to handle them. We also discuss how to determine entrances, exits and contingencies. It's a 40-60 minute discussion where we cover a lot of their limits and how determine if they can do a dive safely. Whether the site is divable or not, I make the students decide if it's right for them. They make the call, not me and it's not an automatic decision. Of course we discuss their decision so they have something to ponder, but it's their decision. During the first two dives we also monitor air consumption and average depths so they can determine their initial SAC. Until recently, the next two dives were off a boat. On the boat, we discuss what issues would make them call that dive and yes, they have to make the final decision. Using their initial SACs, we determine whether they have enough air to do the dive they want to do. They come up with the basic three limits, time, depth & air, and barring them calling the dive, we splash. In this case, the discussion started at the top of the platform (about 12 feet above the spring), continued around the basin and out to the Suwanee river where currents and eddies are very apparent. I was talking to them about the dirty discharge caused by a rip current and showing them a video on my phone, when the smaller of the two buddies interrupted me and said something like "Wait. We're not still thinking about diving this are we?" My standard reply is "That's not up to me: it's up to you." 3 seconds later they decided that we weren't diving that day. Now, if they had said yes, I would have vetoed their decision and discussed with them the reasoning behind it. We then discussed options for the next day and decided on Blue Grotto. Was it a total loss? They didn't think so since they learned a lot about shore diving and how to decide if it's safe or not. The next day at Blue Grotto, they made their evaluations and decided we could make the dives.

Diving is all about limits and making decisions based on those limits. I feel that I would be derelict in my duties if I didn't enable my students to make those decisions. Oh sure, I have skills to impart. Trim, buoyancy, gear management, emergency procedures, etc. etc. That's only the mechanics of the class. This is why I hate the serial skills mindset. Oh great, you can flood and clear your mask. I want to see my students maintain a clear mask throughout the entire dive. What? You can hover for sixty seconds? Great, but I want to see them maintain trim and buoyancy during the entire dives as well as turn using only their fins. It's great to know how to do things, but you should also know when and why. I shouldn't have to tell my students when to do anything during our OW dives. Time for me to teach them how/why/when was in confined water. Now. it's time for them to show off that they can do the skills when required to. Using this approach, I've had at least a dozen dives called by students over the years. I don't think I've had to call a one.

To be clear: each student has to make that decision. They can discuss it amongst themselves, but the decision to dive is theirs and theirs alone. Sheep need not apply.

@Instructors: Don't make decisions for your students that they should be making. Sure, it might be convenient for YOU, but you're doing them quite a disservice. It's as bad as not teaching them how to not silt up the place. Does it take a bit more time? Sure, but it's the ethical thing to do. Your students should be able to ask the right questions, make the salient observations and evaluate if a dive is within or beyond their limitations. If they ca't do that, then I can't certify them as a safe diver. It's just that straightforward. It's just that important. Don't produce Sheep Divers.
 
Again, though, that does not address the dilemma of students trusting their instructors when they shouldn't. They quite often not only don't know better, they cannot be expected to know better. That is why they are with an instructor in the first place.

I think that it is great to hear about the affirmative things that good instructors do to ensure the safety and quality of the training they provide. Good instructors that can be trusted are not the issue.
Not entirely. If there are other dive classes being conducted by different instructors from different dive shops, I think it is safe to say that it is an appropriate dive site for training.
 
Not entirely. If there are other dive classes being conducted by different instructors from different dive shops, I think it is safe to say that it is an appropriate dive site for training.
I think you are missing the point. Again, that is great as an affirmation.

But are you suggesting that if an instructor takes a student to a site that is not obviously frequented by other shops it is inappropriate? How is the student to know if it is or isn't?

Good instructors do good things. Good sites tend to be busy and / or crowded. Some good sites may not be, for a numer of possible reasons.

A student is not in a position to know ahead of time whether they have a good or trustworthy instructor, although it is understandable that the default opening position will be to believe that they do. Saying that good instructors do X, Y, or Z does not change the fact that the vast majority of students will trust their instructor whether or not their instructor deserves that trust because they do not have the knowledge or experience to know any better. It doesn't matter that good instructors will educate their students on how to know better. Those aren't the instructors we are talking about.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

Back
Top Bottom