Unqualified Divers in Caves--especially ones like Eagles Nest

[tbone1004]

@CuzzA if you look at the limitations put on cavern diving, this violates every agencies defition.

Sunlight as your primary light source is the first one, and it is definitely not the primary light source in that cave....

welcome to the Eagles Nest Ballroom. See that hole in the top middle of the picture? That's the entrance. Sunlight is most definitely not your primary light source, and while you can see it now, it can easily disappear with cloud cover, or the basin getting stirred up, etc etc.

remember that the surface can very easily look like this, and if you have ever dove in Orange Grove with the duck weed, you know full well that all ambient light can disappear in a heart beat

 

[Daedalus]

Someone could easily interpret this sign as... "Well, I'm not going into the cave or cave diving. I'm going into the cavern zone." Of which only one agency (that I'm aware of), NSS-CDS, has stated there is no cavern zone.

View attachment 389549

It says do not dive. Not "do not cave dive." You're being fatuous. Have you dove at Eagle's Nest and if so, were you brought there or encouraged to dive there by EZ Scuba, the dive shop you've been carrying water for?

 

[kensuf]

"DO NOT DIVE UNLESS YOU ARE A CERTIFIED CAVE DIVER" seems pretty straightforward to me. What part of this is confusing?

BTW -- I hope y'all can appreciate the fact that my conversation was confidential, but contrary to some noise in the echo chamber, they do take QA issues seriously and will take action when there is real evidence and not just hearsay. An example, last year they removed an instructor that took his cavern student several hundred feet in a cave after receiving written statements from several witnesses.

 

[CuzzA]

No, I've never been there. I'm trying to think of ways to help the problem with the site.

About the only description I've read is this.

For those of you not familiar with Eagles Nest, here's my explanation I initially posted on cavediver.net

I had a hard time wrapping my brain around what the entrance room to Eagle's Nest was until I had seen it first hand. It's really quite different than anywhere else I had been, and it was quite an awesome experience. As even the depth of the entrance room of Eagle's Nest quickly goes above my level of training, that's all the further I have gone in that system. But based on what I saw, I can understand why people can convince themselves that it is a cavern area, though the sheer size of the area and the conditions found in there make it much more advanced than any cavern area has a right to be. It is absolutely to be approached as a cave dive.

Eagles nest is a little unique in regards to its entrance - it drops you right in the middle of the cave. You come into the cave by a solution tube that drops you into a large entrance room. The tube opens into the room at around 70 feet, and you are in a large room with a big debris cone below you. The top of the cone sits around 120 feet, and the edges of the cone at the bottom of the room dip to around 200 feet. That room is about 300 feet across. From that room, you can continue upstream or downstream into the "cave." Of course, where the edges of the entrance room end and the beginning of the upstream/downstream sections really begin seems kind of arbitrary - it still looks like rather large passage going both directions at that point. I think people consider the entrance room to be a cavern because it "feels" like you are going into a sinkhole, but in reality, you are just dropping right into the middle of a massive cave system. When viz is good, not only in the cave, but also in the surface pool, you can see the light from the surface coming down the solution tube. This is not always the case. I guess that also lulls people into considering this a "cavern" area, since there is sometimes visible light from the surface.

I had the good fortune of going there when viz was fantastic, and the light from the solution tube was clearly seen from the top of the debris cone. Of course, when you move out towards the edges of the room, which are a good 150 feet in any direction, you quickly lose sight of the light from the surface. I'm not sure exactly how far out we were when the surface light was no longer visible, but that's the point - that can change quickly, based on your position in the cave, or the conditions. That doesn't really give a cavern kind of vibe to me.

 

[tbone1004]

you just got two pictures that are important. One showing what the surface composition can be like. The other showing the actual area where the dives in question occurred on a good day which is optimal conditions. You can see in that picture how dark the room is. That room is huge btw, about the size of a football field and over 100ft deep. There is an ungodly amount of light in there, and you can't really see anything in the picture other than the diver and the tube above him.... Not a cavern, and no way you should be doing training in there except with seasoned cave divers.

I was trying to be nice about the sign, but it's pretty clear. Don't "Dive", not cave dive, not cavern dive, don't "Dive" unless you are a certified cave diver.

 

[Daedalus]

No, I've never been there. I'm trying to think of ways to help the problem with the site.

Eagles Nest was originally "protected" with security through obscurity, a model that works very well for dry caving but is largely a total failure in Florida cave diving, especially in the internet age. Once word got out that it was closer and cheaper than other places, unqualified people started showing up and even teaching classes. Any dive shop or instructor who encouraged this or participated in it should be ashamed and if the site gets closed its on their hands. Will they put in the hours and money necessary to try and get it back open? (Spoilers: No, they'll just go back to teaching at other places)

The only way to fix it is for everyone to agree that this is a site for experienced cave divers only. If anyone is taking people who aren't experienced cave divers or encouraging them to dive there they need to stop immediately and concede they never should have done it in the first place if they don't want to be treated like lepers.

 

[kelemvor]

Personally, I think it's going to continue to happen. That is, until NSSCDS raises funds to put a warm body checking cards at the entrance. Or maybe puts a tiger cage and surveillance cameras around the whole area.

Apparently, people can't or won't control themselves. Who knew?

Eagles Nest was originally "protected" with security through obscurity, a model that works very well for dry caving but is largely a total failure in Florida cave diving, especially in the internet age

Yup, details about caves, including coordinates for entrances, maps, etc.. are not very hard to find online.

As "we" learned in IT a long time ago - security through obscurity is no security at all. Did you know in the 1970's unlisted modem phone numbers were the only security employed by most banks for their electronic systems? It was good times.

 

[cerich]

There was a post on another forum by another diver that has first hand experience with the "culture" of EZ Scuba in Tampa..

I got permission to share it here


"I have a bone to pick with what happened here in this tragic case.

Let me just start off by saying, I have crossed paths with the deceased and my condolences to his family. It is always a sad day when one of our fellow Speleo lovers passes.
Now there's a ton that needs to be brought to light. I was a long time student of the shop that this gentleman went to, I spent lots of days and nights here with the people that work there, the customers, being immersed in that light. Just a little back story of my training, I took OW -> AOW -> Deep/Explorer (did deep training while training on the explorer) -> Cavern -> ART -> Rescue -> EFR -> Prism -> DM through this shop. I have since ceased attending that facility due to the false sense of security when diving. I did most of my training at EN, and thought it was a nice place to "just do a cavern dive" as many in the past have stated. I constantly see a common argument on whether or not EN is a place to train for cave / deep / alt gas, etc. I will firmly stand my ground (as being taught most of my time there) that this site is not something for new and quite frankly experienced divers as well. I've seen some of you up at cave country... This guy should have never been brought to Eagles nest in the first place, whether or not it was a medical accident or equipment related. My reasoning is, is that this guy was rough on his gear. He went 0 to hero. There is literally no reason a diver who has been in the water for less than a year has a expedition grade gear. The fundamentals of diving has not been established. From first hand experience I can say that the gear was not properly set up; tanks hanging low, being vertical most of the dive, etc. The type of student that was produced was that of greed and not of the well being of the student. I, personally, was taught at eagles nest from the same shop the deceased was taught at. I have been apart of classes where cavern on the explorer was taught at eagles nest without anything more than PADI deep training (130'). The shop does not condone good health as in eating habits, exercise, etc, and the gear sold was way to advance for the level of student he was. Just as a little chuckle for you all, I literally had to retake sidemount and cavern before starting intro with the shop I attend now. There is literally no reason this guy, as well as dozens of others should have been brought 11 miles back into the woods to dive at this site, especially with the quality of training previously provided._Taylor P"

 

[kelemvor]

What's the attraction to cave training at EN vs Ginnie or Peacock?

 

[Daedalus]

What's the attraction to cave training at EN vs Ginnie or Peacock?

It's closer to Tampa, cheap, and you can give out unearned prestige for diving "The Mount Everest of Cave Diving" to Walter Mitty types.

Also this isn't cave training, it's cavern and open water technical training performed in a cave with untrained divers. Divers who will probably go back on their own after the class is over because it had the imprimatur of approval from someone they looked up to.