Unqualified Divers in Caves--especially ones like Eagles Nest

[ofg-1]

You know guys, I have been hearing this for years, back to the early 80's when a PADI instructor took a couple of OW students on a night dive at Morrison, and they all stayed there. Other than complaining to the certifying agencies, or closing sites, do any of you have a proposal to actually fix this? I would love to hear a well thought out and credible plan, because, damned if I can think of one.

 

[kelemvor]

I have issues with Devil's Den. I've actually found myself on the wrong side of the fence and had to retrace my steps.

I disagree personally with BG as an appropriate OW training location. I would not teach there. beyond even in good conditions being an overhead,when there are the zillion students in there on busy weekends it's a overhead with bad visibility. I have been there listening to new divers talk about running into the walls and ceiling not knowing it was there the vis was so bad.

I did part of my ow certification there as gulf was stormy on that particular day. The rule our instructor used was that we were not to go into the overhead. If he caught us, we failed the course and would get no refund. In fact, given their policies of unlimited retakes of the course for no extra cash, I think it's probably the only way one could truly fail. If memory serves, the overhead doesn't start until you get beyond the 35' platform.

 

[kelemvor]

I suppose being on a rebreather certainly changes the experience. I remember it being pretty much pitch black, but then again I was blowing bubbles and didn't turn off my light. Silt could have played a role too as there's always a lot of traffic there.

Just try turning off your light. I spent probably a good 20 or more hours in the ginnie ballroom before I embarked on any cave training. It is one of my favorite dives, and certainly the site I've been to most.

 

[LiteHedded]

I suppose being on a rebreather certainly changes the experience. I remember it being pretty much pitch black, but then again I was blowing bubbles and didn't turn off my light. Silt could have played a role too as there's always a lot of traffic there.

there is light. you have to look for it though

 

[KevinNM]

I did part of my ow certification there as gulf was stormy on that particular day. The rule our instructor used was that we were not to go into the overhead. If he caught us, we failed the course and would get no refund. In fact, given their policies of unlimited retakes of the course for no extra cash, I think it's probably the only way one could truly fail. If memory serves, the overhead doesn't start until you get beyond the 35' platform.

It's a common GUE site for fundamentals classes. You stay out of the overhead, out where the platforms are. Only cave classes go into the cavern.

 

[kelemvor]

You know guys, I have been hearing this for years, back to the early 80's when a PADI instructor took a couple of OW students on a night dive at Morrison, and they all stayed there. Other than complaining to the certifying agencies, or closing sites, do any of you have a proposal to actually fix this? I would love to hear a well thought out and credible plan, because, damned if I can think of one.

Since Eagle's nest is the one I keep reading about I think my proposal could work. If CDS members could pony up the necessary cash. There are already plenty of "rules" being broken, so more rules will not solve the problem. When a bank wants to stop people from taking the money out, they don't make a rule. They put a guard by the door.

The question is this; Is securing the site worth the cost to those that would have to pay it? OTOH, you have the good and logical argument about personal responsibility and their rights to do things that can or will kill them.

 

[The Chairman]

There are already plenty of "rules" being broken,

It's a matter of every agency having the same rules. If EVERY agency posted that it was not to be used for training except by students who are already FULL cave, then it would clear up a lot of confusion. In their collective infinite wisdom, some will not follow the NSS-CDS lead and do just that.

 

[cerich]

I did part of my ow certification there as gulf was stormy on that particular day. The rule our instructor used was that we were not to go into the overhead. If he caught us, we failed the course and would get no refund. In fact, given their policies of unlimited retakes of the course for no extra cash, I think it's probably the only way one could truly fail. If memory serves, the overhead doesn't start until you get beyond the 35' platform.

and standards of some agencies require a OW dive to be planned and executed deeper than 40ft during the course, so if you follow that standard at BG, you violate another (no overhead)

 

[cerich]

Since Eagle's nest is the one I keep reading about I think my proposal could work. If CDS members could pony up the necessary cash. There are already plenty of "rules" being broken, so more rules will not solve the problem. When a bank wants to stop people from taking the money out, they don't make a rule. They put a guard by the door.

The question is this; Is securing the site worth the cost to those that would have to pay it? OTOH, you have the good and logical argument about personal responsibility and their rights to do things that can or will kill them.

the CDS doesn't own the property, the state does and the CDS couldn't put a gate or fence up even if they wanted to

 

[KevinNM]

Another option is the state specifying that "you must have one of this list of cave certifications from one of these recognized organizations to dive here or we will arrest you for trespassing. Please leave your cave card and gate receipt on you dashboard when you go diving."