Video from a Training Dive with John Chatterton

[Stoo]

Should we not first establish whether or not the kneelers are in the class?

Sure, but since the video is of the class (according to the title) and most of them were doing SMB skills and stuff, I think it's a safe bet.

 

[Zack-Bloom]

I agree with what was said that some of the biggest names in diving aren't great instructors. If that's the type of diving Chatterton teaches, then I'd put him in that category. I'm sure I'm going to get flamed for my opinion, but just cause he has a big name and "it worked for him" doesn't mean it's ok to teach. An instructor should hold their students to the highest level. It's up to the student if they then want to dive on their knees after class.

We're students. We will make mistakes. In ten dives we will be better, and in a hundred we'll be better than that. If you're curious, I have a list of 34 things we are working to improve based on this dive alone: Hydro Notes. We're pretty aware of what needs to be improved, we just need you to be patient please.

I think it's Chatterton's job to make us better divers during the time we're with him, and to keep us safe in the process. I believe he did that exceptionally well. If you want us to be better divers, great, I think everyone involved wants that too.

To put this all in context I asked Chatterton why he hadn't written a book or shared his techniques more widely outside of his class. He said he wasn't done learning yet.

 

[chillyinCanada]

@Stoo Let's get that confirmed, OK?

@Zack-Bloom , were all the divers students in your class with John as instructor?

 

[shoredivr]

We're students. We will make mistakes. In ten dives we will be better, and in a hundred we'll be better than that. If you're curious, I have a list of 34 things we are working to improve based on this dive alone: Hydro Notes. We're pretty aware of what needs to be improved, we just need you to be patient please.

I think it's Chatterton's job to make us better divers during the time we're with him, and to keep us safe in the process. I believe he did that exceptionally well. If you want us to be better divers, great, I think everyone involved wants that too.

To put this all in context I asked Chatterton why he hadn't written a book or shared his techniques more widely outside of his class. He said he wasn't done learning yet.

Hydro notes are well thought out. Thanks for sharing.

 

[doctormike]

I recently heard the phrase "cave diving is figure skating, wreck diving is ice hockey". I like that.

I haven't watched the video yet, but I did take both advanced wreck and AN/DP with John Chatterton and they were both awesome classes. Not only was the teaching terrific, it was a real treat to just listen to him talking about the diving that he has done. If you are a northeast wreck diver (like me) this was baseball fantasy camp. I don't care about diving with him BECAUSE he is famous, I care about diving with him because of WHY he is famous.

Many divers, especially cave divers, place a great deal of emphasis on perfect trim and buoyancy. While these are very good tools to have, and necessary for some types of diving, we shouldn't be so arrogant to think that there is only one type of diving. To be honest, I spend a lot of time wrangling a heavy DSLR rig into low angles and tight spaces, and I dive with people who spend the whole dive in perfect trim with their hands right out in front of them. I can't imagine doing a dive where I had to hold that position, but if that's what they enjoy about diving, that's great.

Remember, the northeast wreck diving culture has long considered a sledge hammer and a chisel as vital dive gear. So when JC advises pull and glide as a way of going over a wreck to minimize effort and CO2 production, that's not advice that would apply to the Lillie Parsons.

There are some situations where "dive and let dive" is simply wrong. There are hard won safety lessons and reasons why entering a cave without a line or a light aren't just "personal choices". And I'll be as careful as I need to be on an old wooden wreck in the Thousand Islands, so that I don't even touch it, let alone pull and glide over it. But the big steel wrecks are collapsing and decaying due to forces far more powerful than a few divers. So like with most things, different approaches for different scenarios.

 

[rddvet]

We're students. We will make mistakes. In ten dives we will be better, and in a hundred we'll be better than that. If you're curious, I have a list of 34 things we are working to improve based on this dive alone: Hydro Notes. We're pretty aware of what needs to be improved, we just need you to be patient please.

I think it's Chatterton's job to make us better divers during the time we're with him, and to keep us safe in the process. I believe he did that exceptionally well. If you want us to be better divers, great, I think everyone involved wants that too.

To put this all in context I asked Chatterton why he hadn't written a book or shared his techniques more widely outside of his class. He said he wasn't done learning yet.

I'm sure it came off that way, but I was not attempting to attack you or the other students. I appreciate your willingness to post the video, knowing it opens up criticism. And it sounds like your goal is to be a great diver. I absolutely agree students will make mistakes. I'm no longer a student, but I still make mistakes. I think this all falls under that classic heading of "you don't know what you don't know." Really my point is that allowing students to kneel on the bottom to do simple skills such as drop a stage or shoot an smb are not ok at all. One: it's not holding your students to a high enough standard. Two: it's teaching them to not care about the wreck. What I saw being allowed to happen does not show great instruction. You can't fault the students because you can assume they may not know better. It's up to the instructor to know better and to teach better. I've heard the stories of John's classes. Your video fell right within those stories. He may be an excellent diver and be famous for a reason, but that's highly questionable instruction.

By the way did he pass everyone?

I recently heard the phrase "cave diving is figure skating, wreck diving is ice hockey". I like that.

I haven't watched the video yet, but I did take both advanced wreck and AN/DP with John Chatterton and they were both awesome classes. Not only was the teaching terrific, it was a real treat to just listen to him talking about the diving that he has done. If you are a northeast wreck diver (like me) this was baseball fantasy camp. I don't care about diving with him BECAUSE he is famous, I care about diving with him because of WHY he is famous.

Many divers, especially cave divers, place a great deal of emphasis on perfect trim and buoyancy. While these are very good tools to have, and necessary for some types of diving, we shouldn't be so arrogant to think that there is only one type of diving. To be honest, I spend a lot of time wrangling a heavy DSLR rig into low angles and tight spaces, and I dive with people who spend the whole dive in perfect trim with their hands right out in front of them. I can't imagine doing a dive where I had to hold that position, but if that's what they enjoy about diving, that's great.

Remember, the northeast wreck diving culture have long considered a sledge hammer and a chisel as vital dive gear. So when JC advises pull and glide as a way of going over a wreck to minimize effort and CO2 production, that's not advice that would apply to the Lillie Parsons.

There are some situations where "dive and let dive" is simply wrong. There are hard won safety lessons and reasons why entering a cave without a line or a light aren't just "personal choices". And I'll be as careful as I need to be on an old wooden wreck in the Thousand Islands, so that I don't even touch it, let alone pull and glide over it. But the big steel wrecks are collapsing and decaying due to forces far more powerful than a few divers. So like with most things, different approaches for different scenarios.

So basically you're saying it's ok because it's wreck diving. I suspect that philosophy is why so many people look that way on wrecks. I've also seen some horrible looking cave divers come from "famous" instructors. Just because they're internet famous, doesn't mean they can teach for crap. Watch the video and tell me what you think about the kneeling. How is it safe to have metal on metal connection on stage bottles in salt water?
Instructors must hold their students to the highest quality standards they can. No questions asked. That doesn't look like it's happening in the video?

 

[CT-Rich]

Maybe the choice of the term propaganda was a little harsh sounding, but I know what he means. John Chatterton is famous and people want to take his courses because he's famous. He was trying to get the answer to how good Chatterton really is as an instructor. Sadly he didn't have to ask. You just need to watch the video.



They were diving doubles, doing decompression, and I suspect (or maybe just hope) they were using Trimix (I didn't listen to the commentary to know). So they've at least taken intro to tech and deco/adv nitrox. Those should put them past the excuse that their novices. There's no excuse for the poor skills in the video. If you're penetrating a wreck at 150+ feet, you should have your crap together. If you gotta kneel, then you ain't got it together. I am by no means perfect and there are some dives I wouldn't want people to see video of, but I strive to be as perfect I can be every dive be it in 20ft or 120ft.

My understanding was they were diving deep air and nitrox for deco. In fairness to Chatterton, he de didn’t teach these guys to dive. If they showed up with bad habits, he isn’t going to fix them in his advanced wreck class.

I like the figure skating/hockey analogy. Styles of diving are going to vary regionally and priorities are going to to change depending on the situation. I know very few divers that would be happy to see a video of them diving posted on the Net. Most divers are not as elegant as they think they are.

 

[Graeme Fraser]

I hope those divers never make it to the Thistlegorm, or any wreck with fragile relics of history.

Don't want to worry you, but I've seen vastly inferior divers on the Thistlegorm, on many occasions.

 

[rddvet]

My understanding was they were diving deep air and nitrox for deco. In fairness to Chatterton, he de didn’t teach these guys to dive. If they showed up with bad habits, he isn’t going to fix them in his advanced wreck class.

I like the figure skating/hockey analogy. Styles of diving are going to vary regionally and priorities are going to to change depending on the situation. I know very few divers that would be happy to see a video of them diving posted on the Net. Most divers are not as elegant as they think they are.

I'm sure as an instructor he doesn't want to fix bad habits. But he should either fail them and tell them to work on certain skills and come back to finish, or end the class at the first sight of what's happening in that video and tell them they're not ready. So if that's how all of the dives in the class were done and they passed, then Chatterton either: 1) doesnt care-which is bad instruction 2) is happy to take their money and send them on their way 3) is so nice he doesn't want to hurt their feelings so he passes them. Either way that's bad instruction (if the assumption that he didn't correct the kneeling and passed them is true). If he failed them, well maybe he does have better standards than shown.

 

[doctormike]

So basically you're saying it's ok because it's wreck diving. I suspect that philosophy is why so many people look that way on wrecks. I've also seen some horrible looking cave divers come from "famous" instructors. Just because they're internet famous, doesn't mean they can teach for crap. Watch the video and tell me what you think about the kneeling. How is it safe to have metal on metal connection on stage bottles in salt water?
Instructors must hold their students to the highest quality standards they can. No questions asked. That doesn't look like it's happening in the video?

OK, will watch the video, but I guess what I'm saying is that you are claiming that - for example - kneeling is bad when diving, as a general principal. All I'm saying is that has to be put into context.

There are lots of times when I need to kneel on the bottom or crawl through a tight space to get the shot. I'm pretty sure that JC couldn't have done what he did on the U869 and the Doria if they had to at all times be completely horizontal in perfect trim with their hands out in front of them. If you make perfect trim the goal of diving, then yeah, any deviation from that falls short and will be seen as "not OK". But not everybody dives like that, and it's not just because they are incompetent divers.