Warped View of the Dive World Vol 2 - Diving Beyond Your Training

[kanonfodr]

Ultimately a newer diver will most likely to follow a dive guide very nearly to their doom, since the guide is a "Professional" and they equate that to "knowledgeable", "safety-conscious", and a bunch of other things. They may not necessarily know how to think for themselves underwater :/.

Peace,
Greg

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I have had threads I started that had plenty of conversational flow, and I plan to have those kind of threads, hopefully often, in the future.

Every now and then, I prefer to keep threads I start on the topic of the OP. Wrecks seems overhead and restricted enough to still be pretty on topic.

Fair enough. Then let's address the bolded text you quoted from me, included in your OP.

Your profile states that you are a PADI OWSI. Does PADI know that you ... as a PADI instructor and professional dive guide ... are taking students and clients into an overhead environment, despite their lack of training in diving such places?

And if so, what has been PADI's response to this knowledge?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Fair enough. Then let's address the bolded text you quoted from me, included in your OP.

Your profile states that you are a PADI OWSI. Does PADI know that you ... as a PADI instructor and professional dive guide ... are taking students and clients into an overhead environment, despite their lack of training in diving such places?

And if so, what has been PADI's response to this knowledge?

My instructor insurance is a "shop policy" for a dive boat operator that specializes in diving Lanai. If you are at the home page and mouse over "tours" the top option is "Lanai." On the Lanai page the following two statements are in the first two paragraphs.....

The Lanai coastline is famous for it's Cathedral Dives, swim-throughs, archways and lava structures. We dive both First and Second Cathedral on a regular basis.

There are over 40 dive sites to chose from, ranging from beautiful coral reefs, to unique lava tubes

PADI's response has always just been a little yellow "Teaching Status" sticker.

I am sure that is the case for hundreds of PADI instructors in the State of Hawaii, and probably over 200 just here in Maui County.

 

[Lopaka]

Of the many holes at 5 Caves, there's one that goes back more than maybe 30 ft, and a couple of places you could squeeze through to get in farther - I can't imagine a guided dive doing either of those. Going in and out of the rest is a mundane event.

Unless the boulders have shifted since I swam through over 10 years ago, there is indeed a constricted passage as part of the tour (with Jack's at least). As I mentioned, the guides did brief the option of popping up through one of the skylights and rejoining beyond the constriction if anyone was uncomfortable in tight places. They had a very well done diagram of the site for all to get a feel for the dive.

Again, things may have changed since. I had been in dense kelp quite a bit by then, but never a tight, boulder constricted passage, fairly far into the tubes IIRC. Was OK with it, but it was not the most pleasant dive experience for the first time, wriggling through like that. I make no judgment on the advisability for going through with basically OW divers, though all were supposed to be "advanced" to a minimum extent.

 

[Airleron]

I couldn't agree more with this statement.

One day, my former employer stated to his employees (I was standing nearby) " The divemaster will make sure you are safe and keep you out of trouble." They all looked at me, (I swear I couldn't help it), and asked, "Do you honestly believe that Dr. ******?" The look on Dr. *****"s face was pure horror, and that was the end of the group discussion. And yes, I was still employed after that.....I'm not sure why though. I eventually left for a better job offer. I'll never forget thinking how NAIVE he is for such a smart guy.

Lisa

Ultimately a newer diver will most likely to follow a dive guide very nearly to their doom, since the guide is a "Professional" and they equate that to "knowledgeable", "safety-conscious", and a bunch of other things. They may not necessarily know how to think for themselves underwater :/.

Peace,
Greg

 

[Scubagolf]

I think this on the original OP's point.

We were on Cozumel a year ago, and a dad was there with his 16-year old son who had completed his PADI OW the day before. We were at the pool and the kid was talking about wanting to do Devil's Throat. I put in my (unwanted) 2 cents that I thought the kid had no business diving the DT. His father, who had all of 40 lifetime dives, wanted his newly cert'd son to have the "full experience". I wished them good luck and crossed my fingers. I heard later that the kid had run out of air on the dive, but fortunately made it back without a problem, sharing air. I was surprised that the dive op involved would take a newly minted teenage diver on the DT, which I consider to be a pretty advanced dive.

 

[Trace Malinowski]

I think this on the original OP's point.

We were on Cozumel a year ago, and a dad was there with his 16-year old son who had completed his PADI OW the day before. We were at the pool and the kid was talking about wanting to do Devil's Throat ...

I didn't know what the Devil's Throat was so I did a Google search and found this immediately: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/2411618-post1.html.

Speaks volumes, doesn't it?

 

[Lopaka]

I heard later that the kid had run out of air on the dive, but fortunately made it back without a problem, sharing air.

An excellent point, which I attempted to make on another thread: the effect of depth on air consumption is glossed over or outright ignored by some training agencies. Early on, that can bite you big time while you still consume a lot of air, and have not gotten into a realm of awareness of time elapse and instinctive gauge scanning.

As most who have been diving a few years know, after a while, you can guess your remaining air probably to a few hundred pounds. Mebbe reading the gauge without thinking, mebbe just knowing yourself and time elapsed at depth.

Does not matter. What does in new divers is they have no such awareness. That kid should have been monitored far more closely, if let do the dive at all.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

As I stated in the OP, I felt Devil's Throat was a controversial inclusion in this thread due to the extreme nature of a number of it's parameters. All the other dives on the list are shallower / closer to the surface, except for the Cenotes, where the guides are not just instructors by full cave divers as well and wearing doubles.

The real topic is going into a not completely dark overhead environment that may have a restriction necessitating single file diving at some point, guided by a local instructor/guide who pretty much guides those dives on a regular basis.

Even in the extreme end of the OP, Devil's Throat, could anybody come up with some injuries or deaths from divers with less than 20 dives and no overhead training following instructor/guides through the 'Throat?

How about any of those other sites in the OP, or any of the other similar overhead sites mentioned by other posters?

 

[Trace Malinowski]

How about any of those other sites in the OP, or any of the other similar overhead sites mentioned by other posters?

It's hard to imagine a well-trained cavern or cave diver having any problems diving such environments. It's easy to imagine an untrained diver having a problem. I'm all for "guts & glory" diving at times, but with the availability of quality instruction, accidents in such environments seems a waste.

Perhaps at a minimum such dives should only be chartered for those tourists who possess AOW & rescue certifications? At least those divers will have been subjected to stressful situations, stress management, and are normally more motivated and aware of the risks.

I stand by what I said, though, and believe you guys are missing an opportunity to increase your value to your employers and customers by providing better safety and education without being cavern instructors or guides at a minimum.