Warped View of the Dive World Vol 2 - Diving Beyond Your Training

[MauiScubaSteve]

Trace, my career training when I went to Florida and spent $20,000 to become a well trained instructor, got me to a level where at 25 PADI certs I could have become a PADI Cavern Specialty Instructor and a PADI Draeger Dolphin Specialty Instructor. In the weeks it took me to travel back to Hawaii, IANTD reduced the minimum hours on a Draeger Dolphin to qualify for Instructor training to where I could have done that before becoming a PADI Draeger Instructor.

But the only guys training Draeger divers in Hawaii were/are the owners of the dive shops; not the employees. As far as teaching Cavern, I quickly did not feel the PADI Specialty was something worth selling, even if anyone was selling it (which they aren't, no cavern of any flavor). My current level of training is more than the vast majority of my instructor/guide peers. Most did not do a MSDT Prep course, or a Resort Pro course, or a Dolphin course, or Cavern/Intro to Cave, or IANTD ADV. Nitrox Instructor crossover with the founder.

All that extra training gets me the same exact pay as all these just plain OWSI's that are my peers. Due to my extra training I am probably not considered as best candidate for many positions, because they want someone who will just crank out certs. I have always taken more time than my employers would like me to with regards to Intro's and OW certs; but my success rate and the success rate of those certs doing the "signature" dives soon after has kept me employed by the quality employers.

It may be easy for you to imagine an untrained diver having a problem, but Hawaii is one of the States, and we are law suit happy in the USA. I have been living in Hawaii for 20 years and I do not remember any instructor guided cavern/lava tube inexperienced diver injury or death. Has anybody got any links to any inexperienced diver injuries or deaths from doing the instructor guided signature overhead dives of any dive destination (or Hawaii)?

 

[LakeCountyDiver]

Man look at that post above another self obsessed rant about how good one is. Look at me I got certs :rtfm:

 

[Blackwood]

It's hard to imagine a well-trained cavern or cave diver having any problems diving such environments.

Maybe if they're diving with other similarly-trained divers. Chances are they'll be with one guy fresh out of AOW, two folks from Russia who dive the red sea once a year, and a husband and wife duo who can't stop arguing about which side the snorkel belongs on.

When I went to Coz, my buddy Chris expressed interest in doing Devil's Throat. My response was: "if we go there, I'm the first one in or I'm not going through it; I'm not following an unknown into a deep restriction."

Not that I'm a well trained cavern or cave diver.

 

[spoolin01]

Unless the boulders have shifted since I swam through over 10 years ago, there is indeed a constricted passage as part of the tour (with Jack's at least). As I mentioned, the guides did brief the option of popping up through one of the skylights and rejoining beyond the constriction if anyone was uncomfortable in tight places. They had a very well done diagram of the site for all to get a feel for the dive.

Again, things may have changed since. I had been in dense kelp quite a bit by then, but never a tight, boulder constricted passage, fairly far into the tubes IIRC. Was OK with it, but it was not the most pleasant dive experience for the first time, wriggling through like that. I make no judgment on the advisability for going through with basically OW divers, though all were supposed to be "advanced" to a minimum extent.

Glad you survived, even without 'more pleasant diving' training! I'm trying to place the hole you're describing - since you mention Jack's, are we talking about the same place - Makena Landing/5 Caves-Graves, south of Kihei? I don't dive much with commercial ops, but I don't recall a Jack's on Maui, just the Big Island.

I can't recall any bore restrictions there except in blind tubes, or even any holes with swimmable skylights - could just be bad memory though. I haven't been all the way to the back of the one long constricted bore - I'm not equipped for long, blind holes with constrictions. But any of the others you could be out or even at the surface, within 10-20 seconds, by simply swimming to visible daylight.

Some caves pose novel risks, some not it seems. I don't see how the latter differ from any guided dive with respect to what the DM faces.

 

[Adobo]

Trace, my career training when I went to Florida and spent $20,000 to become a well trained instructor, got me to a level where at 25 PADI certs I could have become a PADI Cavern Specialty Instructor and a PADI Draeger Dolphin Specialty Instructor. In the weeks it took me to travel back to Hawaii, IANTD reduced the minimum hours on a Draeger Dolphin to qualify for Instructor training to where I could have done that before becoming a PADI Draeger Instructor.

But the only guys training Draeger divers in Hawaii were/are the owners of the dive shops; not the employees. As far as teaching Cavern, I quickly did not feel the PADI Specialty was something worth selling, even if anyone was selling it (which they aren't, no cavern of any flavor). My current level of training is more than the vast majority of my instructor/guide peers. Most did not do a MSDT Prep course, or a Resort Pro course, or a Dolphin course, or Cavern/Intro to Cave, or IANTD ADV. Nitrox Instructor crossover with the founder.

All that extra training gets me the same exact pay as all these just plain OWSI's that are my peers. Due to my extra training I am probably not considered as best candidate for many positions, because they want someone who will just crank out certs. I have always taken more time than my employers would like me to with regards to Intro's and OW certs; but my success rate and the success rate of those certs doing the "signature" dives soon after has kept me employed by the quality employers.

Is this thread about following the garden variety instructor who "did not do a MSDT Prep course, or a Resort Pro course, or a Dolphin course, or Cavern/Intro to Cave, or IANTD ADV. Nitrox Instructor crossover with the founder" into an overhead environment or is it about following a "well trained" instructor into an overhead environment? It sounds to me that the latter is in the "fringe".

Also, are you a cave instructor, full cave trained or a PADI Cavern Diver instructor? When you lead open water only certified divers into overhead environments, do you routinely cover the following info to some degree or another:

• Cavern/overhead environment navigation and line protocols
• Planning, organization, techniques, problems and hazards of cavern/overhead environment diving
• Special equipment use, such as lights, guidelines, reels and redundant breathing systems
• Air sharing, disorientation, silting, line problems and other emergency procedures specific to cavern/overhead environment diving
• Silt prevention, buoyancy control, air management and emergency procedures
• Depth and distant limits for cavern/overhead environment diving

It may be easy for you to imagine an untrained diver having a problem, but Hawaii is one of the States, and we are law suit happy in the USA. I have been living in Hawaii for 20 years and I do not remember any instructor guided cavern/lava tube inexperienced diver injury or death. Has anybody got any links to any inexperienced diver injuries or deaths from doing the instructor guided signature overhead dives of any dive destination (or Hawaii)?

Do caverns/cenotes = lava tubes? Do all lava tubes present the same complexity and level of danger?

 

[Adobo]

My current level of training is more than the vast majority of my instructor/guide peers. Most did not do a MSDT Prep course, or a Resort Pro course, or a Dolphin course, or Cavern/Intro to Cave, or IANTD ADV. Nitrox Instructor crossover with the founder.

I am not following this track of dive education so I am not familiar. Set aside the Cavern/Intro to Cave training and focus on the rest... Do the rest of these courses train a diver to lead dives into overhead environments?

 

[Lopaka]

Ah, there is the disconnect: The site (can't recall if it is 3/5/7 room) is well south of Kona on the Big Island. Did not know there was a same name site on Maui.

Glad you survived, even without 'more pleasant diving' training! I'm trying to place the hole you're describing - since you mention Jack's, are we talking about the same place - Makena Landing/5 Caves-Graves, south of Kihei? I don't dive much with commercial ops, but I don't recall a Jack's on Maui, just the Big Island.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

As a cave diving instructor and the director for technical and cave diving for a major training agency, I see having untrained guides as a lost opportunity for scuba diving instructors to attain the proper training in overhead diving and have this added knowledge and skill boost their wages or salaries at the dive centers at which they work. Having professionally trained guides would allow dive centers to charge more for the experience and instructors could earn more money and tips for the guide service they provide.

From a legal standpoint, having trained guides and standards divers need to meet before entering an overhead would probably be more defensible in court. An instructor who isn't trained in cavern/cave diving and who isn't somehow protected could probably be more easily thrown under the bus bu their employer, agency, and insurance company.

Professionally trained guides would be a win-win for the safety of the diving public and the business of diving.

I stand by what I said, though, and believe you guys are missing an opportunity to increase your value to your employers and customers by providing better safety and education without being cavern instructors or guides at a minimum.

Trace, my .....

Ah yes; I experimented with not using the quote button for a side conversation between just two members (up to that that point). Instead, I named the person to whom I was pretty much only replying to, and answered his multiple post statements and questions, sort of in kind.

For those that chose not to follow the side conversation, here are my cliff notes for the above quotes.

Trace identified himself as a "cave diving instructor and the director for technical and cave diving for a major training agency" which in my book is significant to the worth of his opinion.

I see what Trace typed as him saying "if you (instructor guides of "signature" overhead tours) were not just garden variety OWSI's, but instead had some overhead training along the lines of Cave Diver or Cavern Instructor, not only would the customers be safer but the operator could charge the customer more, the instructor guides could be paid more and the guests would tip more."

Now, my cliff notes for my answer, that was pretty much just to Trace.

Most of Hawaii diving does not really have any caves, so advancing down the cave diver/instructor path doesn't really have any gain, for anybody.

I am not following this track of dive education so I am not familiar. Set aside the Cavern/Intro to Cave training and focus on the rest... Do the rest of these courses train a diver to lead dives into overhead environments?

 

[boulderjohn]

Trace, my career training when I went to Florida and spent $20,000 to become a well trained instructor, got me to a level where at 25 PADI certs I could have become a PADI Cavern Specialty Instructor and a PADI Draeger Dolphin Specialty Instructor. In the weeks it took me to travel back to Hawaii, IANTD reduced the minimum hours on a Draeger Dolphin to qualify for Instructor training to where I could have done that before becoming a PADI Draeger Instructor.

But the only guys training Draeger divers in Hawaii were/are the owners of the dive shops; not the employees. As far as teaching Cavern, I quickly did not feel the PADI Specialty was something worth selling, even if anyone was selling it (which they aren't, no cavern of any flavor). My current level of training is more than the vast majority of my instructor/guide peers. Most did not do a MSDT Prep course, or a Resort Pro course, or a Dolphin course, or Cavern/Intro to Cave, or IANTD ADV. Nitrox Instructor crossover with the founder.

I'm not clear on this. Are you saying that you are a PADI Cavern Diver specialty instructor, or are you saying you had the opportunity to become one and turned it down? To become a PADI cavern diver specialty instructor, you must have full cave certification from a recognized cave instruction agency like NSS-CDS or NACD. Do you have that?

 

[Blackwood]

Does PADI explicitly use the language "Full Cave" (which doesn't reflect some agencies' course names)?

Per his Dive Resume, he has completed "IANTD and NSS-CDS Intro Cave Diver".

I was planning this installment to include diving deep, but that seems to have already been a popular thread topic without my help.

Are you referring to Andy's thread about diving >100 feet without AOW?

That's not exactly the same thing as diving beyond's one training. As I responded in that thread, I dove >100 feet somewhere around 60 dives in, without AOW but within my training.

I think "deep" is a worthwhile addition to the conversation.

Personally, I have no objections to diving beyond one's training. My deepest dive to date was roughly 30 feet deeper than the depth qualification listed on my deepest card.

At some point, we as adults (note - I'm not expressing an opinion about minors) can evaluate ourselves and push our experience. The adage "you don't know what you don't know" naturally applies, thus I think it's wise and responsible to slowly go further, or deeper, or longer, or whatever you are doing "beyond your training."

Formal classes are neither the most practical nor necessarily the most effective way to progress as a diver.