We don't need no education....

[Srrh]

Hello all,

In another thread, dealing with poneys, double etc...AfterDark wrote this:

Your doing these dives now so training my or may not do you a lot of good.

Well, it got me to think...
Although not very politically correct...he has a point...

There are a series of cert that are not very usefull, aren't they...(except to make cert. agency richer)

Case in point :

I dive in frigid water, so I own a DUI...: I never took a dry suit course...
I've read up a bit, asked my friends to help me with the feet up uncontrol ascent thingy, read and ask some more...and today, I feel as confortable in my DUI as in my Bare 7mm + 7mm...

Another class that sounds thouroughly useless...

Nitrox...took it...should have been a 5 min chapter in AOW...
Underwater Photography...lol
Drift Diving (c'mon...I've drift dove dozens of time without a class...)

Now don't get me wrong.
I am very much in favor of education (in diving and in real life)...

But some of it is becoming outrageous...Soon Paddi will come up with 3 more certs: hot water divier, cold water diver and temprate water diver.

Or 2 more: southern hemispher diver and northern hemisphere diver...

So what is your opinion on this ?

All scuba certification necessary ?

best

 

[300bar]

Case in point :

I dive in frigid water, so I own a DUI...: I never took a dry suit course...
I've read up a bit, asked my friends to help me with the feet up uncontrol ascent thingy, read and ask some more...and today, I feel as confortable in my DUI as in my Bare 7mm + 7mm...

This still sounds like education to me.It just was for free.

 

[AfterDark]

Hello all,

In another thread, dealing with poneys, double etc...AfterDark wrote this:



Well, it got me to think...
Although not very politically correct...he has a point...

There are a series of cert that are not very usefull, aren't they...(except to make cert. agency richer)

Case in point :

I dive in frigid water, so I own a DUI...: I never took a dry suit course...
I've read up a bit, asked my friends to help me with the feet up uncontrol ascent thingy, read and ask some more...and today, I feel as confortable in my DUI as in my Bare 7mm + 7mm...

Another class that sounds thouroughly useless...

Nitrox...took it...should have been a 5 min chapter in AOW...
Underwater Photography...lol
Drift Diving (c'mon...I've drift dove dozens of time without a class...)

Now don't get me wrong.
I am very much in favor of education (in diving and in real life)...

But some of it is becoming outrageous...Soon Paddi will come up with 3 more certs: hot water divier, cold water diver and temprate water diver.

Or 2 more: southern hemispher diver and northern hemisphere diver...

So what is your opinion on this ?

All scuba certification necessary ?

best

I agree and have said so in varous threads. I'm not against education or structured learning but, there does seem to be an abundance of certs. It does give something for a new diver to shoot for and some certs like rescue diver are very relavent and not something you want learn by doing. But yeah, dry suit cert!?! I guess for some it's a good thing. As I've said before when we started you got cerifited to dive, what you did while you were down there you learned on your own. When we started night dive we made an effort to stay close to each, we worked out signals with the lights. After a while night diving was just diving during a different time. We did hundreds of sucessful night dives without any formal training. When we had a reason to go deep, wreck diving for instance, we planned the dive consulated the US Navy dive tables for decommpression and took what we needed to do the dive safely. Again many dives of this nature. We never lost anyone. We never had an accident were we had to involve the Coast Guard or medical personel. We had close calls from time to time but because of the planning and the triggers we had for ending a dive nothing serious happened. We also knew our limits. We weren't going out to the Andera Doria in my fathers 16' cuddy cabin boat for a day of diving. Looking back the only thing I didn't do that I wished I had was log those dives. I could probably get an AOW cert. just on the logs I could show. I'd rather dive with someone that as no certs but a lot of dive time than the other way around.

 

[marinediva]

As a trainer, and not just recreational scuba diving but also hospitality and first aid, I learn that everyone is different. Students have different abilities and potential capabilities. Everyone learns in a different way.

These courses are options for people to gain knowledge and skills, in most cases before they attempt that type of diving. Since there are millions of divers certified I am sure these courses are highly useful to the majority.

I do not believe it is productive to put down the teaching of courses simply because a diver has the opinion they are thoroughly useless and did not feel it beneficial to take one.

Just as a note if you did not have a nitrox cert, you should not expect to be using it nitrox on my boat. There are also a number of wreck sites in Aust that require a wreck certification to be able to dive it.

 

[Diver0001]

So what is your opinion on this ?

All scuba certification necessary ?

Well.... yeah. I understand why it's done. It's done to split the necessary stuff out from the nice-to-know stuff and to provide consumers with a cafeteria model so they can pick and choose which extra's they'd like to learn.

Clearly the agency profits from this but I don't think profit is bad. The question of whether or not it has *added value* is a good one and not easy to answer. Some people really benefit from a drysuit course, for example, and some think it's a waste of time.... different strokes for different folks. I never took a drysuit course either.

As for what I really think about this, it's two fold.

1) Adventure dives have their place but NOT as a replacment for a "skills" class. Learning Nitrox as an adventure class. No problem, it's not a core skill. Learning fish identification or u/w naturalist, why not if you're interested?

but learning buoyancy control..... now *that* gives me alarm bells.

Buoyancy control is a primary dive skill and if someone thinks we need an "adventure" dive to give it a proper handling then they're not doing their job properly while teaching the OW class, imho. I think PPB should be fully integrated into OW. It's just too important to put off teaching, even though most people somehow manage to learn it despite their training.

2) The advanced class would seem to have limited added value if I believe the stories people write on this forum. People take advanced when they're still relatively new divers so there is a lot they should be able to learn and there's no reason why they shouldn't *all* come away from it thinking that they've become better divers for it. I don't know for sure why that's happening, but I *suspect* that because of the amount of differentiation in the adventure dives, that AOW now misses a "core" of diving skills like OW has and people miss that. You might say taht "navigation" and "deep" are the core, but evidently (based on feedback) that's simply not good enough.

R..

 

[Srrh]

Just as a note if you did not have a nitrox cert, you should not expect to be using it nitrox on my boat. There are also a number of wreck sites in Aust that require a wreck certification to be able to dive it.

Seriously...?

Mind you, I said Nitrox should be covered...not just in another course...5 minutes in AOW...
Of course, Cert agencies and lds couldn't charge over 100 $ for it...

As to wreck, I suppose it depends if there is penetration involved...Or are you saying that just to see a wreck, you should get certified ?

Could I take my camera along without showing you my Photography Cert ?

 

[DCBC]

I don't want to beat this subject to death, as its recently been well discussed on a couple of other threads that specifically address this issue.

I agree. PADI has cut-up diver training to such an extent, that after a diver becomes certified, a notable portion of divers have the requirement to be babysat by DMs or Instructors. Safety just doesn't seem to be there.

The adventure diver type of certification promotes training and develops experience, which I support. Other specialties such as "Boat Diver" do the same and are logical progressions to gain experience, but I have to ask myself boat diver?

I was certified (and still certify my students) to have the skill-sets to dive with their buddy in an independent manner. That does not mean that they will not benefit from programs of this type, but like in years past they are able to gradually challenge themselves in ever increasing underwater environments as they gain experience.

I don't believe that dependence on the LDS serves anyone other than the LDS. Students are however getting what they have wanted. Quick and inexpensive diver training that is modular. PADI saw a market and applied sound business principles to address it.

In fact when I owned a PADI Training facility I was called by PADI, to here them tell me that I was doing it wrong. My training courses were approx 45-50 hours when the PADI Standards at the time were set at 27 hours. They told me that if I taught my students too much, I wouldn't get them back so I could make more money. My reply was "What if I teach to standards and they don't come back?

I suppose my philosophy was just different. I continue to train through other training agencies and hold to a 50 hour program.

PADI continues to chip away at their training program; recently taking out buddy breathing. I don't know where it's going to end....

 

[Buoyant1]

Once you get past "AOW" then you're basically done with the overly necessary things where you need "the card". (talking recreational, not technical) I've never heard of anyone requiring the wreck course, or a deep diving course for doing specific dives, but I'm sure somewhere someone is doing it...I took wreck because I wanted to learn it, and it got me four good (technically guided) dives on two wrecks in the Keys. It's information, it's fun, I enjoyed it and was glad that I did it. I haven't taken a deep course (yet) but I'm only doing it as a precursor to some more advanced courses that one of my friends (who is a local instructor) teaches, and requires it for taking his advanced level courses. (and he told me that HIS deep course, while PADI, isn't as easy as PADI's, which is good enough for me!) I also purchased a dry suit this year, and haven't taken the course, but I have plenty of friends that have suits, that have been giving me good tips to get it right. I won't be taking the course since I've never seen it as a requirement for dives. 20 dives later in it, I think they gave me enough tips that I feel fairly proficient in it.

I DO think that some of the courses are a bit far fetched. Knowledge is what you make of it, and if you look at some of the courses as a means to "get cards" then you will always think that you are being fleeced. If I didn't have knowledgeable buddies, I'm sure that taking a dry suit course would have been a good idea. Personally, I'd like to take a DPV course, just to play with DPV's! DO I need it as a requirement to do so? No, but it looks like crazy fun!

 

[marinediva]

In Aust there is a code of Practice for Scuba Diving. This is nothing to do with an agency. This is
Industry Standard for OH & S, that was produced and moderated by the industry.

Bottom line, If I took you, and something happened, I would have a lot of explaining to do.
I could end up being charged along with my employer with negligence as well as an assortment of other things that might be the result of an unlikely event.

In both examples, you would be doing something you have not been certified by an instructor
to do. Whilst I totally understand you may be more than capable I need a card which says to me, another instructor has seen you and believes you are capable. End of story.

Mind you I could sign you up on a course which would then cover both positions.
lol

 

[Pearldiver07]

I agree that many of the certs are just that - cards to collect. But remember, people get different things out of diving. Some like to continue to learn different aspects, some take the courses because they like to have guided experience before going out on their own. Some don't because they like to learn on their own.

But a note of caution. The most insidious aspect of learning on your own is "not knowing what you don't know."

1. If you don't know something, but are aware of the shortfall, you can either address that (i.e. read up on it, practice it, etc.) or mitigate that shortfall (restrict your diving profile to put 'padding' into place).
2. If you aren't aware of a shortfall you can lead yourself right into a situation that you're not even aware could exist or aren't aware that may present a risk (kelp diving, dry suit diving, etc.). Do you have to take a class? No. Are you then assuming a personal risk in assuming that you've the necessary skill and knowledge to complete that dive? Yes.

As long as you're aware of this assumption of possible risks above and are willing to take them, then have at it. But remember, any competent instructor passes along much more than what is in the books. They also pass along experience so that you learn from other's mistakes.

One other issue I have with the buddy/mentor approach is that everyone simply focuses on the skills and abilities when considering who to learn from. For some reason no one ever considers the ability of that individual to convey that information/skill to the other diver, and to ensure that the other diver truly understands it. I point this out because also many instructors aren't really that good at this.

Teaching requires both a personal mastery of the skills and knowledge as well as the ability to successfully pass it along. Most people tend to forget the second half of this statement.