West Palm Beach Fatality 59 yo male diver

[Capt.Gene]

If a taxi takes a fare to a destination in a dangerous neighborhood is it his fault if something bad happens?

 

[danvolker]

I heard some second hand info on the diver tonight. Apparently was found (on the bottom) 3 hours after he descended at a location which would indicate that he swam east some distance from the point where he was dropped.. Breakers reef in 50-60 feet..

He had ditched some lead and the BC inflator hose was disconnected. I got the impression he was diving with his son and a group and got separated on entry. Only caught a few pieces of info, not the whole story and no enough info to formulate even a rough picture of what happened.

I also heard he had 2400 psi left in his tank!!!

 

[Reck Diver]

In the United States, and according to the US Coast Guard, "YES." The master of the vessel has the final say, and is responsible for the safety of his/her passengers.

Some how I thought what you write above is correct. I was almost ready to call Chapman's and tell them they need to make the changes for the next edition.

I heard some second hand info on the diver tonight. Apparently was found (on the bottom) 3 hours after he descended at a location which would indicate that he swam east some distance from the point where he was dropped.. Breakers reef in 50-60 feet..

He had ditched some lead and the BC inflator hose was disconnected. I got the impression he was diving with his son and a group and got separated on entry. Only caught a few pieces of info, not the whole story and no enough info to formulate even a rough picture of what happened.

WPEC-TV CBS12 News :: News - Top Stories - UPDATED: Missing diver found dead off Palm Beach identified
Questions were initially raised by the media the afternoon of the accident.

When asked for a comment, Pura Vida Divers declined.
PBC scuba death a wake-up call for all divers

There are many questions that need have to be answered. At face value, it's not adding up. I hope the facts will be presented sooner rather than later.

I am curious about one point. On the news EMS was performing CPR on the diver even though he had been submerged from 10:45 until approx. 3:15 or about 3.5 hours after he was expected to surface. When isn't EMS required to initiate CPR?

 

[Garth]

If someone is pronounced dead it is appropriate to stop CPR.... EMS doesn't usually pronounce.


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[bowlofpetunias]

Many cases around the world (I don't know the rules in the US) If CPR is in progress when Ambos arrive.. they are required to continue until a doctor declares death. Also Ambulance may continue CPR until in the privacy of the Ambulance to save the family, witnesses and rescuers emotional trauma.

 

[ahava]

In the United States, and according to the US Coast Guard, "YES." The master of the vessel has the final say, and is responsible for the safety of his/her passengers.

Once they hit the water they are no longer passengers. The captain is not responsible if they slice their leg open on a wreck. As well a pilot is not responsible if a parachute doesnt open.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Some how I thought what you write above is correct. I was almost ready to call Chapman's and tell them they need to make the changes for the next edition.




WPEC-TV CBS12 News :: News - Top Stories - UPDATED: Missing diver found dead off Palm Beach identified
Questions were initially raised by the media the afternoon of the accident.

When asked for a comment, Pura Vida Divers declined.
PBC scuba death a wake-up call for all divers

There are many questions that need have to be answered. At face value, it's not adding up. I hope the facts will be presented sooner rather than later.

I am curious about one point. On the news EMS was performing CPR on the diver even though he had been submerged from 10:45 until approx. 3:15 or about 3.5 hours after he was expected to surface. When isn't EMS required to initiate CPR?

What is not adding up? Nothing in those Tv reports that makes me suspicious of the dive operator or the story or their subsequent response.

 

[DandyDon]

Remarks like "died minutes after he was pulled out of the ocean off the coast of Palm Beach" and "Back on shore and fighting for his life" don't seem to make much sense for as long as he was missing at 75 ft.

 

[Reck Diver]

What is not adding up? Nothing in those Tv reports that makes me suspicious of the dive operator or the story or their subsequent response.

The time line is troubling to me. If he went in with his buddies, why didn't they surface when he went missing? SOP correct? The reports state, he entered the water approx 10:45. He was scheduled to surface at 11:45. When he didn't surface he was declared missing at 11:55 or 10 minutes after he was scheduled to surface. If went missing on entry and was recovered with 2400 psi, he was breathing air for quite a bit of time. Difficult to say how long but if he started with an Al 80 at 3200 psi, 15 minutes give or take. Maybe as little as even 8-10 minutes if he began to panic and his rate of respiration increased. Who knows if the outcome could or would have been different if the search started sooner rather than later... Regardless, any chance for rescue was lost.

While I drive frequently, I haven't been on a commercial dive boat in years. But according to the Palm Beach Post report there were 3 Master Divers aboard the vessel (I assume they meant DM's)

(Authorities identify diver found dead off Lake Worth Inlet as... | www.palmbeachpost.com)

Why wouldn't any of them make the dive, just to insure safety? I honestly don't mean to be flippant, but what else would they be doing while the divers are in the water? It doesn't take 3 DM's and the captain to watch the flag(s)

The disconnected inflator hose makes me wonder what the diver masters were doing while the divers were preparing. If they weren't diving, shouldn't they assist in making sure the divers are ready to enter the water? Air turned on etc? I'm surprised how no one noticed a dangling hose.

When we dive, we usually enter the water with air the BCD so as each pair or trio of divers gets oriented to one another on the surface, then descend together. I thought that was pretty much SOP for recreational diving. If the deceased went in the water "heavy" (which is probable since he was found on the bottom even after ditching some weight), he must have done so without any air in his bladder since the inflator hose was not connected. I can't think of any reason he could disconnect the at depth, can you?

Of course my questions are all dependent on the accuracy of the reporting. Either way, we will have to wait until the official findings are published.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

The time line is troubling to me. If he went in with his buddies, why didn't they surface when he went missing? SOP correct? The reports state, he entered the water approx 10:45. He was scheduled to surface at 11:45. When he didn't surface he was declared missing at 11:55 or 10 minutes after he was scheduled to surface. If went missing on entry and was recovered with 2400 psi, he was breathing air for quite a bit of time. Difficult to say how long but if he started with an Al 80 at 3200 psi, 15 minutes give or take. Maybe as little as even 8-10 minutes if he began to panic and his rate of respiration increased. Who knows if the outcome could or would have been different if the search started sooner rather than later... Regardless, any chance for rescue was lost.

While I drive frequently, I haven't been on a commercial dive boat in years. But according to the Palm Beach Post report there were 3 Master Divers aboard the vessel (I assume they meant DM's)

(Authorities identify diver found dead off Lake Worth Inlet as... | www.palmbeachpost.com)

Why wouldn't any of them make the dive, just to insure safety? I honestly don't mean to be flippant, but what else would they be doing while the divers are in the water? It doesn't take 3 DM's and the captain to watch the flag(s)

The disconnected inflator hose makes me wonder what the diver masters were doing while the divers were preparing. If they weren't diving, shouldn't they assist in making sure the divers are ready to enter the water? Air turned on etc? I'm surprised how no one noticed a dangling hose.

When we dive, we usually enter the water with air the BCD so as each pair or trio of divers gets oriented to one another on the surface, then descend together. I thought that was pretty much SOP for recreational diving. If the deceased went in the water "heavy" (which is probable since he was found on the bottom even after ditching some weight), he must have done so without any air in his bladder since the inflator hose was not connected. I can't think of any reason he could disconnect the at depth, can you?

Of course my questions are all dependent on the accuracy of the reporting. Either way, we will have to wait until the official findings are published.

Your lack of expereince with local charter diving is causing you to see discrepancies that are not there. From what i understand (from third hand account) the diver was found a considerable distance east from the drop location. So we assume he swam there, neither the current nor wind on the surface could have placed him there.

You assumption that everyone inflates the BC and floats on the surface waiting so that everyone descends as a group is not the way it is done on many charters, however i don't know anything about this boat or their SOP.

The disconnected inflator hose could be associated with him leaving it unconnected before the dive .. either accidentally or deliberately... Also, it could have been connected and functioning when he entered and then at depth, it began to bleed air into the BC, so he diliberately disconnected it. I've done many dives with the power inflator not hooked up (if there was an issue on the boat) and I've had to disconnect the inflator hose at depth because of an inflating leak issue several times...it just is not a big deal... The disconnected hose is a clue, but it does NOT make me want to point a finger at the boat operator, DM's or the diver himself.

You seem to believe that the DM in a large group counts every diver following his float and will abort a dive if someone is missing. That is not the way I worked when I was a DM. The customers were to follow ME, I pull the float, I am burdened, I know where to go and it is their job to follow me. If a DM aborted the entire dive every time some clown couldn't clear their ears or felt weird and went up early or sucked their air down too fast.... the diving would be terrible.. everyone would be pissed. It is follow the leader and I am the leader.

So,,, in general, a customer is supposed to dive with his buddy and they are supposed to stay with the dive guide who has the float. If they fail to do that, then they are to ascend soon after or it is assumed that they want to explore a little on their own and they will be ascending some time later with their own SMB in the general vicinity where the DM has the main group. Again the DM doesn't abort the dive when one of his 11 divers is momentarily out of his visual.....I am NOT saying this is how this boat operation is run, but that is how I used to operate. From what I understand, his son was on the boat, so it is reasonable to suspect that he was buddied with his son. I am sure the investigators have talked with the son.

Now if someone is really new and wants a lot of help, then we would buddy them up with the DM and then they would get direct supervision but this was NOT SOP.

Since it is not unusual for groups to get "spread out", there is no way for the operator or DM to know he was missing until a roll call was taken and he is over due. Then they began a search and it took a long time I presume, because he must have swam east insead of north along the reef, which was the typical dive in that area... it is a straight (meandering) run in a northerly direction on an inside (west) break.

Plus, divers go missing ALL THE TIME and 99.99% of the time it is because they didn't stay with the DM and they drifted off and the diver is found floating on the surface some time later..so when the guy was over due, they would first assume he got away from them and begin looking for him on the surface. After maybe 30-45 minutes of searching, maybe THEN you begin to search underwater.. but in all honesty the rush is over, by this time it is a body search not a rescue. In other words, it is important to find the lost diver floating on the surface and get him safely into the boat and no longer subject to getting run over by a careless boater than to assume that this time the diver is on the bottom somewhere in a location where he can be saved. The considerable delay in recovery of the body sounds plausible to me...

I am hesitant to say what I think happened in this case, because we don't know.. but it sounds like the diver was separated from the group, swam east, while the group was swimmng north with the current and he may have had an equipment or a health issue...

In any regard, there are a lot of unanswered questions, but I don't see anything that makes me suspect that the operator was doing anything wrong.

And .... of course the operators aren't going to say crap to a news reporter.. they are upset and ANYTHING they say could be misinterpreted. Failure to make a statement is indicative of being professional NOT culpable.