What does "intelligence" or "niceness" have to do with it?

[Divedoggie]

I just wonder at the sheer hypocrisy on display here. It's breathtaking.

Something that you, Kim, may understand based on your immersion in Japanese culture, is the hypocrisy of Japanese whaling policy vs. Japanese culture.

While some may consider whaling part of Japanese culture, the truth is that they have only been whaling outside the waters of Japan for a couple of hundred years.

Living, working, religion, dress, style, speech, manners, social rank, etc., are the cultural markers that make Japan so unique and extraordinary. One strong belief, passed down from the Samurai culture is to die a good death. To die with honor. To die quickly, painlessly, and hopefully with cause.

The Hypocrisy is that they afford none of these honors to the whale. Maybe they did long ago, when they, like the Inuit, would take one whale from local waters, and it would last an entire year for the village. The people praised and thanked the great spirit of the whale for its flesh. Then they used every bit of the whale for many different aspects of life.

Now it dies slowly, it dies in former sanctuary waters, and it dies without need, it dies for greed. It dies a poor death.

I have a side of beef in my freezer. The steer was raised with 20 other steers, by my neighbor, on big clean pastures, with clean water to drink. He was raised without growth hormones, steroids, or antibiotics. He never went to a feed lot. He died very quickly and painlessly. He died a good death.

The cows are pregnant, and next spring, the herd will be back to the same size as it was this fall. I have no problem eating this meat. If you think that is hypocrisy, then thats your opinion and your problem.

Cattle, poultry, herd animals, salmon, food animals in general, are all effective and prolific breeders. A herd of deer can be decimated, and then rebound to large numbers within two years.

A whale may not even be half way through its gestation period by then. Also, the life span of a whale is very long. Longer than humans. Infancy and childhood last as long, if not longer than humans. Not only is it impossible for the whale's numbers to rebound quickly, but the learning, nurturing, and bonding process is interrupted. Who knows what becomes of the orphaned whales.

Intelligent discussion on this thread has complied enough information to show that there is not hypocrisy with the opposition to whaling, but rather insufficient leverage needed to pry open a closed mind.

 

[agilis]

Divedoggie, I suspect your understanding of 'Japanese culture' may be a little thin. I'm not sure you understand Bushido all that well, either. I'm certainly no authority, but the whole 'good death' thing does not sound quite right. In a Japanese cultural context, honor is very closely tied to loyalty, and to a complex web of obligation. Very painful deaths may be appropriate in some circumstances, especially in connection with expiation. There are many instances recorded, some fairly recently, of persons commiting seppuku declining the merciful beheading customary after the initial opening of the abdomen in order to die a difficult death, as an intentional gesture of extreme remorse.

In any case, the notion of a good death sounds like Hemmingway. I agree with your observations regarding the fragile hold many species have on continued existence, but I think the underlying reasons in almost every instance have to do with human selfishness. There are simply too many of us. Limiting human population growth is the only sustainable solution. The one child per family policy pioneered by China would be a reasonable measure, if strictly enforced. Cutting the Human population down to 2 or 3 billion would solve a great many problems. I know it's not realistic, but I think it's the most ethical path we as a species could follow.

 

[Divedoggie]

agilis, A combination of roughly conveying a broad concept, and a limited amount of knowledge of Japanese culture, made my statement about a "good death", rather simplistic. Your insight and example add accuracy and illustration to the concept.

The harpooned whale, in a metaphorical seppuku, deserves the merciful beheading, but is dishonored, for it is not granted. My point, that Japan's whaling policies don't align with its culture, is still valid.

Human population control as measure to save whales:
In nature, overpopulation is controlled by cataclysmic disaster. In human history, there have been numerous plagues, floods, drought, fires, wars, locusts, and famine.
Nowdays something is bound to equalize population growth. Bird Flu, Ebola, AIDS, Mad Cow Disease, nuclear war, biological war, terrorism, global warming, famine, or a stray meteor or comet, to name a few.

The possibility exists that whales and dolphins may be the intelligent life, the meek that will inherit the earth.

 

[Kim]

The harpooned whale, in a metaphorical seppuku, deserves the merciful beheading, but is dishonored, for it is not granted. My point, that Japan's whaling policies don't align with its culture, is still valid.

Excuse me...that's complete BS. You talk about it as if the Japanese are intentionally being cruel to whales - utter crap. They use explosive harpoons aimed directly at the brain with the intention of causing instant death. Anything else takes much longer and is therefore more work. These people are just trying to get a job done as quickly as possible. Are they always successful? Of course not - just like anyone else. Suggesting that there is some innate cruelty at work is ridiculous and demonstrates a refusal to allow that others might not view life, and right and wrong in the same way that you do.

You asked earlier about Japanese hypocrisy. It exists - just like everywhere else. That's no excuse to excuse our own hypocrisy in being judgmental when it's easy for us to be so.

From the New American Standard Bible:

"You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

As to your earlier arguments about gestation periods and rate of reproduction. Of course that plays a role in sustainable hunting. Something the Americans and the Europeans didn't think twice about when it suited them.
To claim that the pain and suffering of the orphaned whale calf is so much worse that the veal calf, or any other calf for that matter, that's hauled away from it's mother long before it would naturally occur in nature doesn't really impress me. Who the heck am I to say that whales feel more loss and pain than cows? Who the heck are you?

I don't find the killing of animals for our food to be hypocritical. It's the selectivity of what lives and what dies that I find hypocritical.

For crying out loud....we've used animals - including really supposedly intelligent ones like chimps that hardly differ from us genetically - for our own purposes for thousands of years.

• For food - no matter how cruel the process is if that's what it takes - for instance veal.
• For research into medicines.
• For guesswork experimentation like sticking them on rockets and sending them into space - or deco chambers to find out what sudden deco can do to you.
• For training in warfare as the US navy has done with explosive dolphins.
• For making sure the wife doesn't get a skin rash the next time she plasters on her make up.

And so much more.

If you can't see the inherent hypocrisy in our behavior then I really have to wonder who's mind is open and who's mind is closed.

Meanwhile the Japanese are actually not breaking any laws, and while exploiting the loopholes (as every other country in the world does in it's own interests) is actually also remaining inside it's treaty agreements.

So I actually think that your earlier comment applies here....

....then thats your opinion and your problem.

 

[cowdog77]

I come from a family of hunters, I hunted in my earlier days quite a bit, and I worked at a western hunting lodge for some years. I've noticed as I grow older, I increasingly avoid the taking of life. I'll probably end up releasing mice and wasps into the backyard before all is said and done. Diving seems to have contributed to my changing mores....I don't eat grouper any more and I used to really enjoy grilled grouper. ~

 

[Kim]

I come from a family of hunters, I hunted in my earlier days quite a bit, and I worked at a western hunting lodge for some years. I've noticed as I grow older, I increasingly avoid the taking of life. I'll probably end up releasing mice and wasps into the backyard before all is said and done. Diving seems to have contributed to my changing mores....I don't eat grouper any more and I used to really enjoy grilled grouper. ~

This I can understand - it's very Buddhist in a way. Personally I still have problems with bees nesting close to me, centipedes, and mosquito's. I'm not sure if I'll ever finish the journey.

I did release a mouse once. We found it in a friends living room and I wouldn't let my friend kill it...no matter how much his wife was freaking out. I caught it with my bare hands and took it out to the garden to release it. It bit me....drawing blood.....and ran straight round me back into the house. Who knows? Maybe it had a family to protect somewhere.........

I understand the value of life....really.

I just don't understand what intelligence and cuteness have to do with it. I just don't understand people who try and tell me that some life is worth more than other life.

Hell. Maybe it's because I was born in 1951 and just a few years before more than 6 million beings had been killed for no more reason than they were "less". Maybe it's to do with the rabbit I found when I was 9 that was suffering from myxomatosis so badly the swellings over it's eyes precluded all vision, and it could hardly move. I remember what it took to smash the rock down onto it's skull to put it out of it's misery. Who knows?

I understand the value of life....really.

What I don't understand are the double standards - this one OK.....do what you want with it - this one...awwww....look...it's so cute.....and it behaves just like we do.....isn't it clever....

No. That I don't understand. But it feels awful........

 

[MikeFerrara]

As my OP said "What does intelligence have to do with it?"

I really don't care how intelligent another animal is. That's my point. WHY can anyone think that THIS is the measure of what it's OK to hunt, kill, and eat?

To me - if there is ANY justification to kill other mammals/animals for food there is really no honest way to differentiate between them. How intensive farming techniques are practiced throughout the so called "civilized" world are every bit as barbaric and cruel as what we've seen posted here. If you don't believe me, I'm 100% certain I can post videos of stuff that I'm quite sure would get pulled because of the violence, cruelity and utter inhumanity which chickens, pigs, cattle/calves, sheep ALL get treated with in the name of profit and the globalized food chain. Not to mention all our hunting fellow divers who are prepared to throw living animals into boiling water because they taste better like that!!!

And the only reason no one creates thread after thread about that is because of a perceived difference in intelligence!!!!!

Or cuteness!!!!

I don't get it.

To a predator, "prey" is anything that can be caught and tastes good.

 

[Kim]

To a predator, "prey" is anything that can be caught and tastes good.

OK.....true.......that's an honest way to differentiate.

Some people actually like whale. Personally - having eaten it once completely by accident I don't.

It's not a taste I'm trying to acquire. What others enjoy is their business though for the most part.

I'm far to bad an example to get on any high horses and tell others how they should live. I'm also far too stupid to be able to reasonably draw lines between morally correct...it's OK to hunt and kill.....and it's NOT OK to hunt and kill.

If it's really such a big deal then OK. Let's all give up eating any meat or fish or anything with a nervous system more developed than a plant. I'll do it if we really should. Just leave out the hypocrisy of claiming that it's OK to eat one animal because they're clever, or cute, or breed slower/faster, or any other BS justifications. If you want to be the "higher moral being with responsibility"....that's what it takes..... don't eat them.

Otherwise we are what we are. Predators. Sometimes reality is really not as pretty as we would like. Looking for someone else to blame, like the Japanese, is a pure, hypocritical, cop-out. Of course they are to blame......just like me....and you.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Many people believe in a god given right. That everything on this earth is for man's consumption. That is an archaic attitude.
I truly disagree with the attitude that an animal is an animal. A human is a human. Humans are superior. Humans are paramount. Animals are lesser, and they are here for our taking. That we humans have the right to be masters of the world.

We have the right and obligation to be custodians and keepers of the world.

A reference to Biblical teachings? Several times in these threads reference has been made to the book of Genesis where God grants man dominion. However, no mention is made of the rest of the story (full context).

The idea that we are charged with the job of being stewards of things God created and owns is expressed throughout the Bible. I don't see any Biblical grounds for the idea that we have a "God given right" to use as we see fit. It's more of a God given responsibility to wisely use resources that are owned by God.

Psalm 24:1 "The earth is the Lord's, and all it's fullness, The world and all those who dwell therein.

Psalm 104:24, 25 "Oh Lord how manifold are your works! In wisdom you have made them all. The earth is full of your possessions-25, This great and wide sea, In which are innnumerable teeming things both small and great.

Proverbs 12:10 "A righteous man regards the life of his animal, But the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel."

A cute story I read...So, some scientists discover a way to make life from dirt, just like God did. They decided to invite God to the unveiling of their discovery. God shows up and says "Ok, lets see what you can do." To start the demonstratrion, one of the scientists bends down and picks up some dirt and God says "Oh now wait a minute. Go get your own dirt."