What does "intelligence" or "niceness" have to do with it?

[DA Aquamaster]

I was raised on a farm/ranch, so I understand your argument...but there is not widespread acceptance of many of those practices - hog confinement operations for example that are profitable, but no where near humane. Money is as alwyas the driving factor, but some farmers and ranchers choose not to go down that path.

However even on a "regular" ranch where livestock are raised for the the express purpose of either breeding more livestock or, if they do not meet the desired genetic standards (based on weight and conformation related to amount and quality of saleable meat) sale for slaughter as soon as they meet an optimum weight based on cost of feeding versus the current market value, I learned early on that you do not want to name anything that you may someday eat. We are afterall, omnivores at heart and eating other creatures is part of the equation.

I also used to hunt a lot, but have gotten much more particular as my values changed. I now value an antelope far more for the beauty and grace it adds to the landscape more than I do for it's meat in the freezer and only hunt them during those rare periods when their numbers exceed the ability of the grass to support them. Rabbits are cute and cuddly, but have huge birth rates and are very prone to adverse conditions, so I am not averse to shooting scores of them on a single outing on some days during periods where they are vastly over populated. Same with prairies dogs, who are also very prolific and often outstrip their resources (and are incredibly rewarding to pop at 300 to 500 yards in a full value cross wind - a situation that at least gives them a sporting chance).

But most of those arguments do not apply to the hunting of whales. It is not big business and is not an endeavor that supports large fleets and employs thousands of workers, it is not legitamate research, and populations are not going hungry for the lack of their meat. If any of these arguments were true, a better management strategy would be to let the population recover to near the optimum carrying capacity to maximize the number of replacement animals that could be sustainably hunted each season.

That pretty much leaves the I wanna kill it because I can argument. I am as much of a predator as anyone, and am probably more so than most, but I am also smart enough to realize that some of the things we do just do not make much sense and if we are not serving a greater purpose and leaving the world a better place when we leave it, we have pretty much failed to have lived a useful life - and that is very much a traditional farming and ranching philosophy - and for that matter is also the under pinnings of most successful hunting and gathering cultures past and present - most of which we have eliminated despite their being far older and on both geologic and cultural time scale far more succesful than ours.

 

[Kim]

But most of those arguments do not apply to the hunting of whales. It is not big business and is not an endeavor that supports large fleets and employs thousands of workers, it is not legitamate research, and populations are not going hungry for the lack of their meat. If any of these arguments were true, a better management strategy would be to let the population recover to near the optimum carrying capacity to maximize the number of replacement animals that could be sustainably hunted each season.

I think you are making a mistake here. There is definite pressure on whale stocks in Antarctica waters due to the decrease of krill due to temperature changes. There are FAR more whales dying of starvation than are being hunted these days. It could even be argued that hunting some is allowing others to live by reducing the demand on the available krill.

You are right though. It's NOT a huge industry any more - just a few boats and a few hundred people working them. Everyone is getting in a state about what the Japanese are doing but the percentages are minuscule - fractions of 1%. So why such a fuss? It doesn't seem to based in any kind of reality. Those who try and claim that present whaling activities are causing population extinctions are talking tripe to be honest! It's simply not true. It WAS true in the time of hundreds or maybe thousands of boats, with thousands or maybe hundreds of thousands of workers. That's long gone and will never come back. Some people have a taste for whale so there remains a small market (getting smaller all the time in Japan). Considering the real consequences of what that costs, and the fact that everyone else demands that they can eat what they want, why the hell not leave them alone and agree to gastronomically differ?

I already said - if there are health issues...... true extinction issues due to hunting....then yes - reign them in. But this business of "my preferred animal is more cuddly or smart than the yours" is daft IMO.

Americans for example HATE being told what to do or how they should behave. Is it so odd that other people do too?

 

[Divedoggie]

I already said - if there are health issues...... true extinction issues due to hunting....then yes - reign them in. But this business of "my preferred animal is more cuddly or smart than the yours" is daft IMO.

Americans for example HATE being told what to do or how they should behave. Is it so odd that other people do too?

Again, the argument isn't about being cuddly or smart. Intelligence is used to describe a higher level being. There are smart and not so smart people in the world. Educated and ignorant. Yet all are intelligent, at least potentially, and are considered higher level beings than anything else on earth.
If religion gets in the way, and people find it offensive to equate another being with humans. Then religion, again has become an absurd justification to kill another being.

What about pain and suffering issues? Do we superior humans have the right to abject the whale that is being killed slowly, terrified, writhing in pain, leaving her calf and the pod forever, to such misery?
An intelligent animal realizes the horror of whats happening to her. The pod suffers the loss, and are terrified and stressed.

So, back to your statement. How can we decide or justify which animals we kill or eat. Can we base that decision on intelligence or cuteness?

We have to draw the line somewhere.
There are certainly multitudes of stupid ugly people out there, so should they/we be slaughtered too?
Your argument is that you draw the line at human. Anything that is not human can morally be killed or eaten.

Research has shown that whales and dolphins are highly intelligent, basically higher orders of beings, not too unlike ourselves. So I draw the line there.

All animals feel pain. We humans assign a pain threshold to animals because they cannot communicate on our terms. Ignorant people don't believe animals feel pain or have emotion. Again, research shows the exact opposite.
Veterinary schools now teach pain assessment and use a pain scale to determine what an animal is feeling. Pain is now treated in animals, with the same diligence that your Doctor would treat you.

An old Vet, who had been in practice successfully for 50 years in Minnesota, recently had his liscence revoked for failing to treat his patient's pain adequately. It is now the Vet's responsibility to properly medicate so that there will be no suffering. Old school vs new school. Ignorance vs educated.

Americans may not like being told what to do, but there is always room for education. Understanding that something is wrong, and that there is a better way to do it, is the first step in changing a behavior.
This can certainly apply to whaling.

 

[bubba105]

IMO centuries of wholesale slaughter of whales, for profit, is seen by the vast majority of the world's population as an ethical & moral disaster. Had it not been for alternative sources of oil being discovered, there would be no whales to discuss. Greed was and is the determining factor. Profit IS the bottom line. If and when it is no longer profitable to kill whales, there will be no more killing. After all, how many people get to eat the limited amount of whale meat available? The price has to be astronomical, as all prices are when there is little supply. Most people can’t afford it so it becomes a status symbol. Only the Inuit Indians use whales to sustain their existence. No profit, just existence. Look at the bear gall bladder, rhinoceros horn situation. To kill a bear or rhino, take the gall bladder or horn & leave the rest behind makes what sense? It's all in the bottom line for some high priced, ritualistic nonsense. In the USA we have dolphin (porpoise) safe tuna. Why, because it was presented to the public those dolphin were being killed in the nets of tuna fishermen. Was the public outcry due to the cuteness factor? Yeah, that’s what it was, for the most part. Bottom line, the tuna fishermen couldn't be bothered lowering the side of the net & letting the dolphin out because it was time consuming, thus getting the net around more tuna took longer & some tuna would also escape. So they'd haul the net & throw the dead dolphin overboard. Greed, profit, it rules the world. Once the population lost its undying love for tuna, the marketers came up with the dolphin safe BS. Is it true, probably not. I have no problem with the herding & killing of dolphin when it is a food source. Hunting, if you eat what you kill, is a perfectly legitimate way of existing. The whales have made a comeback so now let's allow some corporation to go kill some of them, under the guise of supplying a much loved food source, for the bottom line. Nah, let’s leave the whales alone and let the profiteers look elsewhere. They'd, no doubt, begin finning sharks.

 

[Mr.X]

I think you are making a mistake here. There is definite pressure on whale stocks in Antarctica waters due to the decrease of krill due to temperature changes. There are FAR more whales dying of starvation than are being hunted these days. It could even be argued that hunting some is allowing others to live by reducing the demand on the available krill.

You are right though. It's NOT a huge industry any more - just a few boats and a few hundred people working them. Everyone is getting in a state about what the Japanese are doing but the percentages are minuscule - fractions of 1%. So why such a fuss? It doesn't seem to based in any kind of reality. Those who try and claim that present whaling activities are causing population extinctions are talking tripe to be honest! It's simply not true. It WAS true in the time of hundreds or maybe thousands of boats, with thousands or maybe hundreds of thousands of workers. That's long gone and will never come back. Some people have a taste for whale so there remains a small market (getting smaller all the time in Japan). Considering the real consequences of what that costs, and the fact that everyone else demands that they can eat what they want, why the hell not leave them alone and agree to gastronomically differ?

I already said - if there are health issues...... true extinction issues due to hunting....then yes - reign them in. But this business of "my preferred animal is more cuddly or smart than the yours" is daft IMO.

Americans for example HATE being told what to do or how they should behave. Is it so odd that other people do too?

I'm looking for #'s regarding starvation of whales in the Antarctic sanctuary mated to diminishing krill #'s. I don't see a numerical value, which shows a definitive connection between krill samples sizes (stats. seem localized) and whale mass starvation. Wouldn't doubt that there is a connection though. Sampling in such a vast area is extremely difficult and only broad statements being possible. Whatever decreases there are, whales numbers would be undoubtedly exacerbated by human intervention - harvesting krill for cultured salmon, pharmaceuticals etc.& sea ice melt. Here's the thing...what gives the Japanese the brass ones to say it's a reason to harvest? . Given the decrease in krill, who says harvesting cetaceans is the cure, or a greenlight? Less antelope in Africa, gotta kill some lions! :11doh:

Additionally, I just saw an article this morning about whale curry in Japan. Spinning the meat as a new gastronomic fad is soooo pathetic. It didn't sound like there were rows & rows of humans willing to try the stuff. BTW- strong curry can make shoe leather tastes good too.

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gcCeUp_7uUHMIsfClNjny-kDOJ1w

As per folks butting in - sometimes you have to do it. Again, the Japanese whaling industry is not respecting the world at large, nor wisely managing a global resource. If the Japanese balk at Koreans eating dogs, the world can balk at their inhumane treatment of dolphins and the "sham" harvest.

Let's get off this bandwagon of defending all of Japan and it's right to eat something. Most Japanese could give a ____t about it, and in the large scheme of things whales are sadly of secondary, or tertiary value.

As environmental advocates, we can only try to hasten what is the inevitable death of an industry and stake claim to what we feel is our resource. What gives the whalers the right to kill “our” whales?


X

p.s. I appreciate the fact that so many have joined these discussions. It indicates that folks globally do not appreciate the latest bad behaviors by the whalers.

 

[Kim]

Considering there is an ongoing whaling thread started by Mr X I really think that it should be possible to stay vaguely on topic here at least. Several of these posts would be much better in that thread as they have nothing to do with my question.

This thread is about how people use supposed intelligence or niceness to justify eating one thing themselves while condemning another's choices.

I just wonder at the sheer hypocrisy on display here. It's breathtaking.

 

[lock_washer]

Well...I guess its time to close this thread... Just like in the "Dolphin Slaughter in Japan" thread (My thread)...people are going back and forth.

Lock Washer

 

[Kim]

Well...I guess its time to close this thread... Just like in the "Dolphin Slaughter in Japan" thread (My thread)...people are going back and forth.

Lock Washer

Well.......as you aren't the OP in this thread I guess I'd like it to remain open (My thread)
People might disagree, but are remaining civil. There's absolutely no reason to close it.

Yes it goes back and forth - it's a discussion.
In any event as the OP I'm completely happy for this thread to remain open given everyone's conduct until now (bar one small hiccup)

Off topic, but still heartfelt - whatever your personal views and convictions on this very difficult and emotive topic, I'd like to thank ALL the participants for their civility in posting their opinions. There are many people who "read along", and maybe have their own views on the topic already, or are influenced by the ebb and flow of the discussion here. It's much easier to follow a civil discussion than a discussion that needs Mods intervening to stop the children fighting....closing threads....getting heavy...whatever.

 

[Mr.X]

Considering there is an ongoing whaling thread started by Mr X I really think that it should be possible to stay vaguely on topic here at least. Several of these posts would be much better in that thread as they have nothing to do with my question.

This thread is about how people use supposed intelligence or niceness to justify eating one thing themselves while condemning another's choices.

I just wonder at the sheer hypocrisy on display here. It's breathtaking.

This precludes you from knowing what it is to be around marine mammals on a day-to-day basis, or knowing that marine mammals can make decisions beyond the simple life functions of eat, breed, escape etc. I'll go one step further - whales show benevolence and hatred. That's a measure of brainpower. If you feel OK about slaughtering animals that show that type of behavior then who’s the hypocrite here? You drone one about caring about people and their rights, but you discount the fact that there are other life forms here, which should be extended the same courtesy and respect. IMO whales do a better job of treating people with kindness, than what we've shown them throughout our savage history. Honestly, what have they done to us to deserve such brutality - like Taijii?


If you understand the point I am trying to make, your reflection glares heavily. I'd drop the highbrow insinuations and get back to being humble. You don’t know squat about the intelligence of marine mammals beyond what you can glean off the net and being an occasional UW tourist.


X

 

[Kim]

You don’t know squat about the intelligence of marine mammals beyond what you can glean off the net and being an occasional UW tourist.

Neither do you my friend.......

As you yourself stated earlier:

You cannot quantify what you, or I do not know. Intelligence, is subjective itself.

That's exactly my point.