What makes trust me dives bad, and what makes them worse?

[DevonDiver]

So is there a way to snag a free lesson out of an instructor on what would otherwise be a trust me dive? :cool2: (Actually) buddy up with him, or, since the dive leader an instructor, is reading up ahead of time and grilling them with questions a valid "self lesson?"

It depends on your relationship with the instructor concerned. A lesson is a lesson - you learn something. For it not to be a trust me dive, you should know what you need to know before the dive.

There's a gulf of difference between an instructor saying;

"...that is the dive plan. You'll be ok. Don't worry, I will look after you..."

and saying;

"...that is the dive plan. Now... let me talk you through the skills and procedures you will need to utilise during this dive. Ask me questions if you don't understand. I'll be demonstrating these things also, during the dive. Just watch me and repeat..."

 

[Diver0001]

The difficulty in giving a definition is that trust, in itself, is an integral part of training and an integral part of diving on all levels. I have *absolute* trust in my regular buddy. He's a tremendously skilled and alert diver and we work together like hand-and-glove under water. Both he and I will do dives together that neither of us would do with a less experienced or well "broken" buddy. This is a matter of trust, communication, style, approach and knowing that someone else who is at least as commited to your safety as you are, and who is at least as good a diver as you are, has your back.

So every dive we do together is a "trust-me" dive on some level, isn't it? After all, without that trust I would dive with someone else....

I suppose for the sake of this discussion, a "trust-me" dive is any dive you couldn't or wouldn't have made without someone leading you through it. It is also a dive that you don't have the skills/experience to have planned without help.

None of this is bad, however, if it's approached intelligently, that all divers in the team are involved in the perparation and clear about the *fact* that the Jr. member (if we can call it that) needs some hand-holding.

In fact, trust-me dives can be good learning experiences if approached like this. The Jr. member can boot-strap themselves on the experience of the veteran team members.

Where it becomes problematic, is when communication breaks down. When one engages on a trust-me dive but doesn't make it clear what their needs are, or when the more experienced members take the needs of the Jr. member too lightly.

R..

 

[TSandM]

There isn't a bright line between "appropriate" dives and "trust me" dives -- it's a continuum. Being a little way along the continuum is a pretty familiar place for new divers. After all, the first time you got in open water, wasn't that a serious "trust me" dive? I'll bet you didn't plan the dive, or know the site, or choose your buddy. And if you were like me, you paddled furiously to follow the "guide" because he represented life, warmth and safety

At every stage of diving, there are dives you are completely comfortable with and completely capable of planning and executing by yourself. And there are dives that sit on the edge of your envelope, that are in new environments or require new skills, where you are pushing things a bit. If you never push that edge, you will remain a pretty static diver; if you push it too far, you may well get into trouble.

Where I see "trust me" as being truly reprehensible is where the diver simply cedes all responsibility for both understanding the proposed dive and for assessing the suitability of his skills and his equipment for doing that dive. If you are diving at a resort (and I have certainly done this) you are likely to be diving a site you've never seen before, and sometimes in conditions which are unfamiliar. I do trust the site information from the operator, but I also pay close attention to it. I may well follow the guide, but I'm also evaluating what we are doing as we go along to make sure it a) makes sense and b) appears safe, and also to make sure that, if I lose the guide, I can get back to the boat or shore.

If you are doing everything within YOUR capability to participate in planning and executing the dive, but are leaning a little bit on someone with more experience, either in diving in general or in that environment, I think that's a "stretching" dive, and those are good things.

BTW, I asked much the same question a while back

 

[cocoajoe]

The difficulty in giving a definition is that trust, in itself, is an integral part of training and an integral part of diving on all levels. I have *absolute* trust in my regular buddy. He's a tremendously skilled and alert diver and we work together like hand-and-glove under water. Both he and I will do dives together that neither of us would do with a less experienced or well "broken" buddy. This is a matter of trust, communication, style, approach and knowing that someone else who is at least as commited to your safety as you are, and who is at least as good a diver as you are, has your back.

So every dive we do together is a "trust-me" dive on some level, isn't it? After all, without that trust I would dive with someone else....

I suppose for the sake of this discussion, a "trust-me" dive is any dive you couldn't or wouldn't have made without someone leading you through it. It is also a dive that you don't have the skills/experience to have planned without help.

None of this is bad, however, if it's approached intelligently, that all divers in the team are involved in the perparation and clear about the *fact* that the Jr. member (if we can call it that) needs some hand-holding.

In fact, trust-me dives can be good learning experiences if approached like this. The Jr. member can boot-strap themselves on the experience of the veteran team members.

Where it becomes problematic, is when communication breaks down. When one engages on a trust-me dive but doesn't make it clear what their needs are, or when the more experienced members take the needs of the Jr. member too lightly.

R..

Good stuff.

 

[Bob DBF]

Where I see "trust me" as being truly reprehensible is where the diver simply cedes all responsibility for both understanding the proposed dive and for assessing the suitability of his skills and his equipment for doing that dive.

This is the heart of the problem with "trust me" dives. As a SCUBA diver you are trained to be responsible to yourself and buddy in a very harsh and unforgiving environment. Once you give up that responsibility you also give up the knowledge, experience and ultimately the safety of your diving.

I also want to differentiate the "trust me" dives from the natural expansion of experience by planning and executing more complex dives a little at a time. These dives have you and your buddy working together to be better divers by planning the dive and the emergency procedures necessary if things go sideways. "Trust me" dives you have little to no idea of the plan or safety procedures and if the excrement hits the fan you have to hope Aquaman or Mike Nelson is around to save you.


Bob
------------------------------------
Not pushing the envelope just poking at it on occasion.

I may be old, but I’m not dead yet.

 

[marymac]

All you Pros on scubaboard are making me think you would rather have some of us divers give up diving and go home rather than make a trust-me dive. Or you want us to spend Tons of money taking extra classes to feel better about our diving abilities. I am a trust-me diver. I am a vacation diver. I do hang on every word the DM says on every dive. I review tidbits in my manual.. I believe common sense is key in diving. As is level headedness . I believe some over react in telling other divers to not do a dive. Why put fear in others? Why not just give a bit of encouragement and pointers to help and not hold back an eager diver. I love reading all the tips to help me become a better diver.. I don't enjoy all the kiljoys out there telling people No. How about a push in the right direction maybe a link on the best training tips.. the net nowadays has everything right at our the comfort of our home. I am a believer in practice practice but us vacation divers don't have the time or money a lot of others do. Of course only do the dive if you want... Listen to the gut. But underwater
in a situation I don't want to hear the voices in my head saying you should have never went on this dive. I want those little voices telling me Breath.. focus.. ..in with the good out with the bad

 

[gcbryan]

All you Pros on scubaboard are making me think you would rather have some of us divers give up diving and go home rather than make a trust-me dive. Or you want us to spend Tons of money taking extra classes to feel better about our diving abilities. I am a trust-me diver. I am a vacation diver. I do hang on every word the DM says on every dive. I review tidbits in my manual.. I believe common sense is key in diving. As is level headedness . I believe some over react in telling other divers to not do a dive. Why put fear in others? Why not just give a bit of encouragement and pointers to help and not hold back an eager diver. I love reading all the tips to help me become a better diver.. I don't enjoy all the kiljoys out there telling people No. How about a push in the right direction maybe a link on the best training tips.. the net nowadays has everything right at our the comfort of our home. I am a believer in practice practice but us vacation divers don't have the time or money a lot of others do. Of course only do the dive if you want... Listen to the gut. But underwater
in a situation I don't want to hear the voices in my head saying you should have never went on this dive. I want those little voices telling me Breath.. focus.. ..in with the good out with the bad

Whether someone on SB tells you something is not a good idea or not doesn't change the facts. You can shoot the messenger but the facts remain the same

I don't think most posters are saying don't dive until you take more classes. Just treat your vacation dives in the same way you would have to treat your local dives if you have any or if you were to choose to dive locally.

You should inspect your rental gear just as you would your own gear. You should put it together yourself. You should try to find out what the dive sites will be before you arrive and get online and get some reviews of those sites. If you find it's a current intensive dive and you think that's beyond your comfort level ...find another dive site.

Don't assume a buddy that you just met is on the same page as you. Almost every problem that makes it to an accident report on SB is something that wouldn't have happened if the divers involved approached the dive as they would have to approach a local dive where there may be no one else other than themselves to rely on.

Most every new diver here locally has to be responsible for themselves from the beginning since there is no one else to do it for them. We generally get some dives in with someone more experienced every now and then but even that isn't/shouldn't be a trust me dive.

If you only do a few dives a year on vacation that can be a limiting factor so at least realize that it is. If someone only drove a car once a year while on vacation they should realize that their driving skills are pretty basic and should be sure to keep their driving environment pretty basic. Maybe it wouldn't be a good idea to drive in Manhattan while on vacation

 

[Jim Lapenta]

What he said and again why would you hang on every word the DM says and take it as gospel. Do you know him or her? Do they know you? Do you know for sure that they have taken into account every aspect or your skill, knowledge, training, and I'm completely serious here with this one-psychological makeup and what your panic threshold is? Bet they don't. Too many people fall into the fun, sun, and happy times for all hype that agencies will put out. And that is part of it but by no means the important part. In fact that hype is what the new diver soon finds is the thing that does not prep them for the real world and they get the crap scared out of them or get pissed and sometime hurt and never dive again. The DM's job is to play that hype up even more and if possible not allow the once a year divers to think about what they are really doing and real risks involved.


So why would you turn your life over to them? There are are DM's and guides that lead people into many situations beyond those levels and many times nothing happens. But when it does the results are ugly, painful, and sometimes lethal. Vacation divers more than anyone have a responsibility to themselves and everyone else on the boat to do whatever it takes to see that they are capable of taking care of themselves if the stuff hits the fan. You really need to understand that unless you have hired a specific DM to guide you and look out for your safety that the boat DM is not your buddy. He is not your watchdog. Her job is not to keep you safe. Their job is lead you around so that you don't get lost, show you stuff that they think you will find interesting (I prefer to choose myself what is and is not), and get you back on the boat in time to make lunch back at the dock and get the next group out. You and your buddy are on your own. If something happens to the DM or you get separated you need to be able to take care of yourself without anyone's assistance.

"Trust me we do this all the time" has gotten people hurt and killed and will continue to until they become more responsible about every aspect of their diving. "Vacation diver only" is no excuse for not taking some action to see that their skills and knowledge is kept current. You can read, swim, exercise, and try to find local spots to dive. I have a couple now who have elected to not take a vacation trip. Instead their vacation is going to be spread out over the entire summer training and diving with me. When they do go on vacation next year they will have to rely on no one for anything more than how deep, what direction, and how much time do we have before you pull anchor.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

All you Pros on scubaboard are making me think you would rather have some of us divers give up diving and go home rather than make a trust-me dive.

That's not what we're saying at all. We're telling you that you should understand the risks, and be prepared to deal with the consequences, before embarking on a dive. If that concept wasn't part of your Basic OW training, it should have been.

Or you want us to spend Tons of money taking extra classes to feel better about our diving abilities.

The dive industry made a decision some 15 years or so ago to break what used to be the Basic OW class into three components ... what are now known as OW, AOW, and Rescue. I believe anyone who dives ... whether a vacation diver or someone who dives locally on a regular basis ... should take those three classes. Beyond that, additional education is only something you need to take to achieve your personal goals.

I am a trust-me diver. I am a vacation diver.

Those are not equivalent terms ... there are many vacation divers out there who are perfectly capable of taking care of themselves.

I do hang on every word the DM says on every dive.

The DM cannot tell you what your abilities are ... or how certain conditions are going to affect your stress levels ... or your individual tendencies toward becoming distracted or distressed at the wrong time. The DM cannot advise you how to gain control over that impending sense of danger that so often turns small, easily fixable problems into crises. Only you know how you feel when you dive. A great many diving accidents ... many of them fatal ... had their roots in something as simple as a diver who was distracted with a buoyancy issue or a mask problem and neglected to check their air, or look around to see where their buddy was. The DM can't fix those for you.

I review tidbits in my manual.. I believe common sense is key in diving. As is level headedness .

Common sense and level headedness are great things to have underwater. But they are only useful if you have enough information about your dive to apply them. Relying on someone else to plan your dive and make your decisions during the dive precludes the use of common sense ... because you lack the information to make good judgment calls.

I believe some over react in telling other divers to not do a dive. Why put fear in others?

Sometimes a little bit of fear keeps you from getting yourself into situations you can't get yourself out of. Should you decide to take the Rescue class at some point, you will discover that it's as much about learning how to keep yourself out of trouble as it is about helping someone else who is in trouble. That's a key component to any diver's education ... whether or not they're just a "vacation diver".

Why not just give a bit of encouragement and pointers to help and not hold back an eager diver. I love reading all the tips to help me become a better diver..

There's a whole series of "What if" threads in this forum that are doing just that. Hopefully you're reading them. ScubaBoard is a wonderful place to gain encouragement and pointers. Some of us have spent years encouraging new divers and helping them learn what they never heard or thought of during a class.

I don't enjoy all the kiljoys out there telling people No.

No is a hard thing to hear sometimes ... it's also a necessary thing to hear sometimes. Just ask your mom ...

How about a push in the right direction maybe a link on the best training tips.. the net nowadays has everything right at our the comfort of our home. I am a believer in practice practice but us vacation divers don't have the time or money a lot of others do.

A Rescue class isn't all that expensive ... probably less than you'll pay for a major piece of gear like a regulator. But it's probably the best investment you can make in scuba diving.

Of course only do the dive if you want... Listen to the gut. But underwater
in a situation I don't want to hear the voices in my head saying you should have never went on this dive.

Those little voices are there for a reason ... and no matter how skilled you become, they never go away. You should always listen to them ... they're trying to keep you alive.

I want those little voices telling me Breath.. focus.. ..in with the good out with the bad

... and while you're focused on breathing, what do you suppose you might be missing? Spend enough time in the Accidents and Incidents forum and you'll come to realize that the majority of accidents are the result of people going on dives they were not qualified for, and getting themselves so focused on the basics ... like breathing and controlling their buoyancy ... that they didn't have the mental capacity to pay attention to what they were doing. They were, in effect, trusting someone else to watch their air ... or their buddy ... and hadn't the ability to deal with the problem that occurred because they weren't paying attention.

Nobody's telling you not to dive ... we're encouraging you to learn enough to keep diving well into your golden years ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[knowone]

Very eloquent.

Those little voices are there for a reason ... and no matter how skilled you become, they never go away. You should always listen to them ... they're trying to keep you alive.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)


They only get stronger

I sometimes wonder, what if?

Often.