What makes trust me dives bad, and what makes them worse?

[haumana ronin]

A lot of definitions for trust me dives are given here, but the definition I like the best is that if the leader suddenly disappeared could you and your buddy (or maybe just you if it was a really bad situation) get back to safety. I was wondering which factors make trust me dives and lack of skill dangerous, especially for new divers. I want to know if I am putting myself in unreasonable danger, so I will add what some stream of consciousness ideas and admit if I do these.

Let me know if I am missing any, have them in the wrong order, think any ideas are really wrong, or am placing myself at undue risk.

1. Air monitoring - Critical habit. Dive leader shouldn't even have to ask. Equipment failure is the only reason OOA should happen.
2. "Real" Overhead - Critical, seems like a good way to panic and/or trap yourself if you don't have training. I wouldn't attempt it without training.
3. Air planning - Critical/Very important. Must know the plan even in training. You should think pretty hard before doing something not in the plan, though it might be needed in an emergency. Rock bottom calculations are important, though I have to admit to using depth x 10 + 200 for an ascent start rather than a true calculation.
4. No hard bottom - Very important. Have buoyancy and safe entry procedures down. Jumping in with a partially inflated BC and slowly letting air out solves this for many people. Know how to dump weights. I still only dive with a hard bottom though. I don't touch the bottom at the end of the descent so I think I am in control.
5. Depth - Very important. N2 loading really ramps up below 60. Air consumption increases too. Scary... Don't know my narc susceptibility. Whatever lack of skill I have in the shallows only becomes more critical at depth. I will try it in a class maybe.:scared:
6. Night - Important. New environment. Could be scary. SAC will probably jump. I am considering a trust me though. I have the AOW book and am studying that. Gonna have to pack a backup backup light...
7. Equipment - Somewhat important. Know your equipment. New divers who are more likely to rent should examine it and know where everything is and how everything works. Test it out on the surface. Know where everyone else's gear is too for that matter. With regard to set up of equipment, if the tour operator sets it up, double check it anyways. I even pull up on the tank straps a bit to make sure the tank wont slide out. I check on the weights and weight pocket clip too. And always always check your air on the surface!
8. Weighting - Somewhat important. Know your average weighting and your average suit so the tour operator can make adjustments if you rent. Though if you are going to have a gross error, make that error on the heavier side. I think I am close to dialed in for a beginner.
9. Slight Overhead - Somewhat important. The "swim through." Nonstop, no turning, always see lots of light, see from entrance through to the exit. There is some judgment call as to what the difference is between a slight and real overhead is. Search on your own in the forums for info on that. Yes, I do this, for about 10 feet long caverns so far.
10. NDL planning - (probably) not that important for new divers. Air will probably run out long before NDL, especially if you use a computer, but only if you don't go down that deep.
11. Being part of the planning - not that important, as long as it seems reasonable to you. It still must be communicated to you. It depends on how much you trust the planners I guess. I do need some practice planning though.
12. Navigation - not that important FOR ME WHERE I CURRENTLY DIVE. I know that the areas I dive are clear of traffic, which way is up, which way is the shore, and I know I can surface then swim to the boat, or even the shore if needed (wouldn't be much further than what I have done, and this time I'd have fins ) I will take the course though as I recognize this as a deficiency and would be very important in many occasions.
13. Fine Buoyancy control - Unimportant. People drag all over the place all the time. Mine is ok for a beginner I think.
14. SAC calculation - unimportant if you keep the above factors in mind. I have found the calculation for it, though it is hard since all my dives so far start off near the bottom of the profile and end less deep.

So what else makes a trust me dive a trust me dive?

:zen:

 

[knowone]

Every aspect of every dive, is a trust you dive!

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I strongly disagree with your number 11. Being part of the planning is perhaps the most important part of the dive. That begins long before you even get in the water. IF I make a decision to come to Hawaii and dive before I even get there I'm going to research sites to see which are most likely in my comfort zone. DO I have the training and experience to safely dive this site or at least get to the boat or shore safely on my own. Then I'm going to research the ops to see which ones will allow me to dive and not be led around by the nose or scolded for not letting the DM set the pace of my swims. I'm also going to look into gear rental should I choose not to bring mine. Then The next step is planning on how to get there and the what if's. What if the boat I booked is broke, who will I then go with. Now that I'm on the boat what is the depth, currents, site layout, and most important the direction we will be going, if I choose to follow the DM or Guide. I don't have to. But if I do and he/she does something I don't like, I'm out of there. All of this is part of the plan for the very first dive and how I teach my OW students to approach it.


My short definition of a trust me dive is ANY dive in which you are not an integral part of the planning and allow someone- anyone- to lead you without any input fromn you. I don't do this with OW students on checkouts. They are part of the planning process for those dives. I would not take them into OW if I did not feel they could safely exit on their own if something were to happen to me. And I'd expect them to be able to assist me as well.

 

[ajduplessis]

I would like to quote Jim if I may as this is one of the biggest issues with trust me dives. If you are a open minded diver you should pick up a lot "warining signs" during the dive planning/discussion and they don't happen with TRUST ME.

"My short definition of a trust me dive is ANY dive in which you are not an integral part of the planning and allow someone- anyone- to lead you without any input from you."
Jim Lapenta

 

[DevonDiver]

What makes 'trust me' dives bad?

That the diver is putting themselves in a position where, if they lose the support of the guiding diver, they cannot guarantee safely completing the dive due to a lack of specific training and experience.

What makes them worse?

That some divers are ignorant of the fact that they are actually conducting 'trust me' dives.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

What makes 'trust me' dives bad?

That the diver is putting themselves in a position where, if they lose the support of the guiding diver, they cannot guarantee safely completing the dive due to a lack of specific training and experience.

What makes them worse?

That some divers are ignorant of the fact that they are actually conducting 'trust me' dives.

What makes them worse is how many dive instructors are ignorant of the fact that they are actually conducting "trust me" dives. Some even spend massive amounts of time on Scubaboard trying to convince everyone else why they're fine doing it, and coming up with adolescent terms ... like "techspurts" ... for anyone who tries to explain to them that they're not ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Insta-Gator]

Do not disregard SAC. I know it's kind of mundane, but as you progress you will see that your SAC or SCR or whatever the acronym de jour is, will give you a strong indication of your skills progression and will be essential for gas management planning in the future.

 

[DevonDiver]

What makes them worse is how many dive instructors are ignorant of the fact that they are actually conducting "trust me" dives.

I agree. I think that instructors can get so used to their teach/supervisory role, that they don't differentiate between when a student is learning and when a trained diver is simpy being taken beyond their limits without the learning element.

I was probably guilty of this. When I first joined Scubaboard and encountered discussions about 'trust me' dives it did cause me to critically examine the limits which I set for divers that I guided.

 

[CamG]

Greetings haumana ronin and this is very near and dear to my heart!
ANY DIVE that exceeds your training / experience/ comfort level is a TRUST ME DIVE!
That is just the cold hard facts no matter what environment or skill level.
EVERY DIVER regardless of skill level MUST not allow these situations to come about.

Instead of complicating the identification of "TRUST ME" dives it needs to be simplified!
What do I mean?
Well ANY DIVE and I mean that that the diver is not capably of planning and executing on their OWN should never be undertaken! END OF STORY!

The issue is that the line between GUIDED BY PROFESSIONAL and TRUST ME dives are becoming blurred!
DANGEROUS, like caring a hand grenade with the pin pulled as long as you do not let go you are fine but once your grip is gone it is going to explode!
This behavior is across the board as to environment and skill levels and it is totally the responsibility of Instructors and individual divers to correct!

Training dives are dives that are executed with a clear concise plan to demonstrate you have the skills to prepare for, plan, and perform the dive safely according to a set criteria by the agency.
People will argue this with me but TRUST ME dives are different! How so?
Well the leader sets the dive plan and the other divers are BLIND followers!
They have put their lives "TRUST' that the leader knows them well enough to evaluate their skills and execute their planned dive safely.
Well the leader is the one who can do the planned dive but the other divers if left unattended would be challenged to execute the dive according to plan safely.
SURVIVING A "TRUST ME DIVE" OR A POORLY PLANNED DIVE IS NOT A EXCUSE TO CONTINUE THIS IGNORANT PRACTICE!

If we do not call our own dives and participate in the planning process we are setting the stage for tragedy.
If we do not do reality based evaluations of OUR skills and temper dive plans with CONSERVATISM we are setting the stage for a problem!
We all have bad days, get sick, suffer from fatigue, fried mental capacity, it is the COMMON SENSE / CONSERVATISM to call a dive that prevents us from putting ourselves at risk and our team.
CALL THE DIVE or alter the plan that simple it is not rocket science!
If they get upset with you then find other buddies they are not fit to dive with!

I wish I could tell you I learned this from instruction which I did hear of it and take note but the fact was driven home this past October cave diving.
It was a lesson that changed my personal diving forever!
IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN!
This is not advice but words to LIVE BY!

CamG Keep Diving....Keep Training....Keep Learning!

 

[haumana ronin]

I strongly disagree with your number 11. Being part of the planning is perhaps the most important part of the dive. That begins long before you even get in the water. IF I make a decision to come to Hawaii and dive before I even get there I'm going to research sites to see which are most likely in my comfort zone. DO I have the training and experience to safely dive this site or at least get to the boat or shore safely on my own. Then I'm going to research the ops to see which ones will allow me to dive and not be led around by the nose or scolded for not letting the DM set the pace of my swims. I'm also going to look into gear rental should I choose not to bring mine. Then The next step is planning on how to get there and the what if's. What if the boat I booked is broke, who will I then go with.

Oh yeah, good point. I never thought of that formally as dive planning. I usually did most of that sort of stuff as good trip research. I am a well practiced tourist. You should see how long I take to research going to a different restaurant.
I think I will incorporate this idea into my formal dive planning.

What makes them worse is how many dive instructors are ignorant of the fact that they are actually conducting "trust me" dives. Some even spend massive amounts of time on Scubaboard trying to convince everyone else why they're fine doing it, and coming up with adolescent terms ... like "techspurts" ... for anyone who tries to explain to them that they're not ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I see the point in your first sentence, but please keep that thread separate from this one. :tongue2:

I agree. I think that instructors can get so used to their teach/supervisory role, that they don't differentiate between when a student is learning and when a trained diver is simpy being taken beyond their limits without the learning element.

I was probably guilty of this. When I first joined Scubaboard and encountered discussions about 'trust me' dives it did cause me to critically examine the limits which I set for divers that I guided.

So is there a way to snag a free lesson out of an instructor on what would otherwise be a trust me dive? :cool2: (Actually) buddy up with him, or, since the dive leader an instructor, is reading up ahead of time and grilling them with questions a valid "self lesson?"

Now that I'm on the boat what is the depth, currents, site layout, and most important the direction we will be going, if I choose to follow the DM or Guide. I don't have to. But if I do and he/she does something I don't like, I'm out of there. All of this is part of the plan for the very first dive and how I teach my OW students to approach it.

My short definition of a trust me dive is ANY dive in which you are not an integral part of the planning and allow someone- anyone- to lead you without any input fromn you. I don't do this with OW students on checkouts. They are part of the planning process for those dives. I would not take them into OW if I did not feel they could safely exit on their own if something were to happen to me. And I'd expect them to be able to assist me as well.

The issue is that the line between GUIDED BY PROFESSIONAL and TRUST ME dives are becoming blurred!
DANGEROUS, like caring a hand grenade with the pin pulled as long as you do not let go you are fine but once your grip is gone it is going to explode!
This behavior is across the board as to environment and skill levels and it is totally the responsibility of Instructors and individual divers to correct!

Training dives are dives that are executed with a clear concise plan to demonstrate you have the skills to prepare for, plan, and perform the dive safely according to a set criteria by the agency.
People will argue this with me but TRUST ME dives are different! How so?
Well the leader sets the dive plan and the other divers are BLIND followers!
They have put their lives "TRUST' that the leader knows them well enough to evaluate their skills and execute their planned dive safely.

Seems like the action of planning and ability to bail are becoming mixed in both of your answers. Related, but not the same?

I wish I could tell you I learned this from instruction which I did hear of it and take note but the fact was driven home this past October cave diving.
It was a lesson that changed my personal diving forever!
IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN!
This is not advice but words to LIVE BY!

CamG Keep Diving....Keep Training....Keep Learning!

yikes...:scared:


OK, then how does one participate in the plan? Should I demand to see topo maps of the area? So far I have just been accepting what they say on the surface, which makes sense and if safe to me, with a backup plan (if led into a risky section) of "ditch DM with buddy and putter around or if buddy doesnt ditch also, surface by self and swim back to boat." Hasn't happened yet. Could I have planned that dive? Yes, but it probably wouldn't be as interesting or fun. Would I have planned that dive, well if a (trustworthy) dive operator has gone through so much trouble...

Almost sounds like no beginner should ever dive with a resort dive operation, ever!? Speaking only from my limited experience in a resort area, which probably matches a good deal of other divers (beginners or not), and trying to mesh that with the ideas on this board, does everyone on vacation have a deathwish? Couldn't be...

Though, like I said in another thread, people die here all the time, even hiking.

And all of you have only commented on one line. What about the others?

I'm probably the only one in SB to admit to currently doing trust me dives of any sort, but I bet almost every beginner is doing them in one aspect or another. On the boats I have been on, there is very little Q&A of the dive brief even though "Any questions?" is asked, but I know not everyone there is an experienced salt water, boat dive, high wind, medium current, navigation, dense sea life, variable visibility genius. I am trying to fill in the gaps in knowledge/skill.

:zen: