What to do when an instructor is out of line?
- Thread starter Hotpuppy
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On our first dive my buddies light died. I gave her my primary and then discovered my backup was dead from having flooded. My backup lives in my BCD and probably got F'd up the weekend before during Rescue class. That's my fault for not checking the backup prior. Protocol says dive is over when you lose a primary. This instructor says, no, take my primary and go do your out and back depth nav exercise... so buddy and I did just that.
Did you thumb the dive? If you did and he didn't honor the thumb, then IMHO that should be a big alarm about the instructor. Anyone can cancel a dive at anytime. PERIOD. To me, that is not an option. I've had a few students thumb their dives 17 minutes in for no apparent reason. No screaming or yelling. Discuss why the thumb, then either complete the dive if we haven't been on the surface too long or redo the dive.
That reminds me of a story about the very first dive I did with one of the best instructors it has been my good fortune to get to work with.
My buddy and I had asked this guy to go out with us and give us some feedback on where he saw us as divers, because we were feeling a bit stuck. We thought we'd do a nice dive and talk afterwards. Instead, as we began our descent, I hear a funny noise and look over and see the instructor mashing on my buddy's inflator. Kirk, my buddy, was doing almost everything right. He was a bit head down, finning downwards, venting through his rear dump . . . but he wasn't trying to turn off his right post. So I swam around in front of him, made myself somewhat negative to help him keep from floating up, got him to switch regs and I shut the post for him. Then we tried opening it again (same problem) and thumbed the dive and ascended. It took about 8 minutes altogether, with a max depth of 10 feet.
When our heads broke the surface, I was expecting to be complimented on the lovely job we had done of working as a team and trying to solve the problem. Instead, I heard this loud growl: "What the F were you THINKING? If you had a major failure three minutes into a dive, on descent, would you really spend eight minutes UNDERWATER trying to fix it?" That's when I knew this was going to be a different kind of diving instructor. And he was. I probably learned more from him than from any other instructor I've had.
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And don't accept a partial payment unless you get a signed contract saying what else is owed you. In some places a partial payment can be used as an argument that full payment was made.
OP
Hotpuppy
Guest
The response arrived this evening: WTF!!!!!
Brian,
<LDS> regrets that you had a less than pleasurable experience during your deep diving specialty dives this weekend. Our policy is, and has always been, to offer excellent customer service. We have received record numbers of commendations, and letters of excellence through the years for our commitment to customer service, and it has in fact become commonplace for divers (even from surrounding stores) to mention this to us. We are not perfect, but our record does speak for itself, and fortunately you have been around the dive center enough to have witnessed this as our policy, and in at least one occasion you have mentioned it to me personally. As a business owner you understand that we appreciate the opportunity to resolve issues prior to a dissatisfied customer spreading bad karma throughout the marketplace.
I personally feel bad that not only were you displeased, but that it was with one of our nicest, easiest going Master Scuba Diver Trainers. As our Director of Training promised you we have investigated the incident in detail, interviewed many parties that were present and were able to hear all or part of the exchange, and we have taken appropriate measures. No further action on this subject will be taken and it is our opinion that this subject is closed.
You have made mention of desiring refunds for course training and in the interest of providing customer service above and beyond we are open to accommodating you on this. Please reply with details on what it is that you want, and we will go to work on that item for you.
Signed,
LDS Owner.
*****
I'm taking the high-road and not naming names.
Brian,
<LDS> regrets that you had a less than pleasurable experience during your deep diving specialty dives this weekend. Our policy is, and has always been, to offer excellent customer service. We have received record numbers of commendations, and letters of excellence through the years for our commitment to customer service, and it has in fact become commonplace for divers (even from surrounding stores) to mention this to us. We are not perfect, but our record does speak for itself, and fortunately you have been around the dive center enough to have witnessed this as our policy, and in at least one occasion you have mentioned it to me personally. As a business owner you understand that we appreciate the opportunity to resolve issues prior to a dissatisfied customer spreading bad karma throughout the marketplace.
I personally feel bad that not only were you displeased, but that it was with one of our nicest, easiest going Master Scuba Diver Trainers. As our Director of Training promised you we have investigated the incident in detail, interviewed many parties that were present and were able to hear all or part of the exchange, and we have taken appropriate measures. No further action on this subject will be taken and it is our opinion that this subject is closed.
You have made mention of desiring refunds for course training and in the interest of providing customer service above and beyond we are open to accommodating you on this. Please reply with details on what it is that you want, and we will go to work on that item for you.
Signed,
LDS Owner.
*****
I'm taking the high-road and not naming names.
OP
Hotpuppy
Guest
My response to LDS Owner:
LDS Owner,
Thank you for taking the time to write to me and I appreciate the apology. I'm still a little perplexed. Your instructor came unglued. I have yet to hear anything even remotely approaching an explanation for it. Aside from being unprofessional, where was the concern for my safety as a student? We're going to simply close this ? You've got to be kidding.
In case you haven't been to scubaboard..... http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ba.../338447-what-do-when-instructor-out-line.html ..... This incident is a *HOT* topic. 3500 views in 36 hours and over 112 responses. Nearly all of which validated my actions and I can't even begin to list the qualified concerns that many instructors and highly experienced divers listed. Now, I did not mention the name of the shop nor the name of the instructor.... although it was requested often. When <Course Director> criticized my judgement I thought it would be important to get an outside opinion.
I'm sorry that you don't see this as being as serious as I do. At this point I see no alternative but to sever my relationship with your shop. You do not seem to be taking this seriously enough and this was the wrong response. It started out well, I appreciate the apology but failing to follow through with an explanation is simply endorsing the problem and trying to forget about it.
If there is something that I did wrong that warrants the experience I had, then let's hear it. As I said before I have yet to hear anything that even remotely justifies what happened.
So what I'd like to do now is figure out how to best unwind the relationship we have.
The easy stuff:
- Digital Underwater Photography class - paid for, never scheduled - refund?
- Flower Gardens Trip w/ Nitrox - Paid for, cancelled twice due to weather - Refund?
- Workbook and Video for Deep Specialty - Paid for, not instock, not received - Refund?
The mildly difficult stuff
- I have a half completed DAN DEMP course. We need to figure out how to resolve this. We started the course weeks ago.
- I am currently enrolled in DM. The trust necessary for this class is shattered, gone, never to be seen again. While I respect <another instructor> as a talented and trustworthy instructor..... I will be entirely too critical of other instructors for me to work closely with them. It would be a bad idea for me to continue. It's not reasonable to expect you to take back course materials. You tell me what you think is fair for the course fee portion. I've done one classroom session.
The hard stuff:
- Deep Specialty. This was a disaster. I'm out the cost of a hotel, travel, and other expenses associated with it. I was publicly humiliated and verbally assaulted. At the very least I think you should refund the course fee and we'll call it even. You tell me what you think is fair?
- Cozumel Trip. Again, the shop has lost my trust. The problem appears to be much deeper rooted then I initially thought. I think this would simply be a bad idea. You tell me what you think is reasonable. At the very least I should not be paying for the food/alcohol portion <I don't drink which they know>. I think you can salvage the airfare to someone else.... but we need to work out an amicable solution to the rest of it. I don't plan to go. I won't dive with people I don't trust... period. And yes, my trust is gone.
- <shop> dive club: It's not likely that I would be welcome in the shop after we are done. No offense taken. However, I don't like to pay for things I can't use. You tell me what you think is fair here as well.
LDS Owner,
Thank you for taking the time to write to me and I appreciate the apology. I'm still a little perplexed. Your instructor came unglued. I have yet to hear anything even remotely approaching an explanation for it. Aside from being unprofessional, where was the concern for my safety as a student? We're going to simply close this ? You've got to be kidding.
In case you haven't been to scubaboard..... http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ba.../338447-what-do-when-instructor-out-line.html ..... This incident is a *HOT* topic. 3500 views in 36 hours and over 112 responses. Nearly all of which validated my actions and I can't even begin to list the qualified concerns that many instructors and highly experienced divers listed. Now, I did not mention the name of the shop nor the name of the instructor.... although it was requested often. When <Course Director> criticized my judgement I thought it would be important to get an outside opinion.
I'm sorry that you don't see this as being as serious as I do. At this point I see no alternative but to sever my relationship with your shop. You do not seem to be taking this seriously enough and this was the wrong response. It started out well, I appreciate the apology but failing to follow through with an explanation is simply endorsing the problem and trying to forget about it.
If there is something that I did wrong that warrants the experience I had, then let's hear it. As I said before I have yet to hear anything that even remotely justifies what happened.
So what I'd like to do now is figure out how to best unwind the relationship we have.
The easy stuff:
- Digital Underwater Photography class - paid for, never scheduled - refund?
- Flower Gardens Trip w/ Nitrox - Paid for, cancelled twice due to weather - Refund?
- Workbook and Video for Deep Specialty - Paid for, not instock, not received - Refund?
The mildly difficult stuff
- I have a half completed DAN DEMP course. We need to figure out how to resolve this. We started the course weeks ago.
- I am currently enrolled in DM. The trust necessary for this class is shattered, gone, never to be seen again. While I respect <another instructor> as a talented and trustworthy instructor..... I will be entirely too critical of other instructors for me to work closely with them. It would be a bad idea for me to continue. It's not reasonable to expect you to take back course materials. You tell me what you think is fair for the course fee portion. I've done one classroom session.
The hard stuff:
- Deep Specialty. This was a disaster. I'm out the cost of a hotel, travel, and other expenses associated with it. I was publicly humiliated and verbally assaulted. At the very least I think you should refund the course fee and we'll call it even. You tell me what you think is fair?
- Cozumel Trip. Again, the shop has lost my trust. The problem appears to be much deeper rooted then I initially thought. I think this would simply be a bad idea. You tell me what you think is reasonable. At the very least I should not be paying for the food/alcohol portion <I don't drink which they know>. I think you can salvage the airfare to someone else.... but we need to work out an amicable solution to the rest of it. I don't plan to go. I won't dive with people I don't trust... period. And yes, my trust is gone.
- <shop> dive club: It's not likely that I would be welcome in the shop after we are done. No offense taken. However, I don't like to pay for things I can't use. You tell me what you think is fair here as well.
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De Nile ... ain't a river in Egypt!
OP
Hotpuppy
Guest
I think with all the discussion we have had that it the thread deserved to see the response and my reaction. I couldn't figure out how to put the steam coming out of my ears into this.
As Trump says: YOU'RE FIRED!
For once, his approach is on-target!
As much as I'd like to name names.... I don't want to open myself to any libel or slander claims. So I'm going to stick to no-names and request that you do the same if you figure out who this is. If they want to go on record they are welcome to opt-in and participate in the conversation. They have my permission to discuss the incident and there will be no recourse from me provided that the discussion remains professional and respectful. No baseless character attacks.
As Trump says: YOU'RE FIRED!
For once, his approach is on-target!
As much as I'd like to name names.... I don't want to open myself to any libel or slander claims. So I'm going to stick to no-names and request that you do the same if you figure out who this is. If they want to go on record they are welcome to opt-in and participate in the conversation. They have my permission to discuss the incident and there will be no recourse from me provided that the discussion remains professional and respectful. No baseless character attacks.
vshearer
Contributor
Looking at all that stuff you were signed up for and also had taken at 25 dives you are every dive shop owner's wet dream.
No offense intended.
No offense intended.
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Saw that one coming a mile away ... folks like this NEVER admit they're in the wrong ...
But you're still being too nice ... he asked you what you want. Don't leave the decisions to him ... spell it out ... he's already demonstrated that his idea of "reasonable" and yours aren't going to be compatible. Don't leave up to him to decide what's fair ... you won't like the outcome.
These folks don't deserve your business ... and while it may cost you some money to get out of the relationship, in the long term you'll be better off for it.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
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