What to do when an instructor is out of line?

[Hotpuppy]

Maybe I missed it while reading through the thread, or maybe the OP never witnessed such a thing, but why didn't Bizzaro-instructor bother scream at the OP's so-called buddy for leaving the OP behind?

I don't think screaming at her would have done much. In fact screaming about a dive is really pointless. Having a discussion about what we did, why we did it, and what could have been done differently is how you learn and why I took a PADI course in the first place.

 

[Hotpuppy]

My somewhat skeptical reaction is based entirely on the fact that I can't imagine a working experienced recreational scuba instructor talking to students in that way, and I've met some pretty brusque instructors.

Agreed. If I'd had so much as an inkling that it was coming I would have been out of the water and out of range.

I felt that separation protocol required me to stay put until my buddy team surfaced. Lest they think I'm lost and start searching for me... Floating where you lost them as opposed to 50 feet away at the platform stairs isn't a big deal. Instructor surfaced at the stairs anyhow and appears to have done a 3 minute safety stop on the stairs. Considering that I did a stop, surfaced, and swam to the platform and hung out for a minute or two. Only thing I can conclude is that it took them a minute to realize they had lost me and they followed the chain up instead of surfacing inside the swim area.

If you get separated and then leave the dive site (go to the tables away from the water) then you do deserve to be yelled at.... in that case your buddy could reasonably conclude you were in deep trouble and hadn't surfaced. That isn't the case here. I was calmly waiting at the surface, not mad, not excited.

From my perspective it's not an unexpected issue. Becoming separated on a deep dive in limited viz is something I would anticipate. So you regroup at the surface, evaluate the problem, plan a solution, and go again if everyone is okay with it. As I've said before..... no reason to "push" a dive to happen.

 

[Hotpuppy]

Just for curiosity, why didn't you just switch instructors at the LDS?

From your first post, when you talked to the CD, you agreed that you could have done things differently (not that I think you did anything wrong). It just seems that you didn't really give the shop a chance.

I emailed them the evening the problem occurred.... and didn't get a peep back from anyone for over 36 hours. I understand that not everyone lives in email... but really? an instructor, Director of Training, and LDS Owner(s) don't check their email for a day and a half..... I suppose it's possible, just not likely. I already knew that the LDS Owner had been briefed when the incident occurred.

So I guess the surprise there is that it took 2.5 days to get a "I'm sorry" and then it was coupled with "But... this guy is terrific"

Approach is everything. Walking into the LDS and limiting the options to either fire the guy or I'm gone, puts them in a spot. Especially, if this is one of their main instructors. With as much money you were going to spend with them, there is no other good reason. I think if we had the other side of the story, we would find out this is exactly what happened.

I never asked them to fire him. I don't think someone deserves to lose their teaching status over one incident... .regardless of how absurd it is. I did ask them to do what I would expect any other business to do.... it's Customer Service 101.

- Acknowledge the wrong or perceived wrong.
- Apologize.
- Restate the standard (We don't do this)
- Assure the standard (It won't happen again)
- Request the business.

When a company doesn't follow that it can look more like a cover up.
- Acknowledge the issue.
- Attack the complainer
- Ignore the problem.
- Apologize, but deflect responsibility.
- Hope it goes away.

There is a third scenario that can play out.
- Acknowledge the issue.
- Apologize for it.
- End the business relationship because the customer is unprofitable or unpleasant.

I doubt I'm unprofitable, and you normally don't invite customers you don't like (aka unpleasant) to go hang out at the bar with the staff or have a beer after class (I'm Just sayin...) I don't drink, but I appreciate the offer.

 

[iztok]

Hotpuppy, my suggestion is that you stop responding and let this thread die. You said your side and explained no need to keep on dragging it you have nothing to gain from responding but lot to lose.

 

[Hotpuppy]

Side by side often does not work too well in Travis. Following a line or threading your way between submerged trees is easier single file.
Also,the sides slope fairly steeply.When the viz is bad (normal) all the outside diver sees is his buddy

Well put.... and obviously you have dove Travis....

 

[SamTHorn]

Sounds to me you did the right thing.

This weekend, I had probably the worst experience since I started diving. Right now I'm questioning if the problem is the instructor, Course Director, or the shop. I've thought through if the issue is me, and I stand by what I did.

The root issue is that after a dive, the instructor surfaced and began cussing me out and refusing to discuss the dive. I feel this is extremely inappropriate.

The class was PADI Deep Diver Specialty being taught at Lake Travis, in Austin, TX. Conditions were 6 foot vis, 75 degree water down to 30 ish feet and then about 65 degree water at depth.

My experience is that I'm a relatively new diver, with about 25 dives. I have my Rescue Diver certification, consider myself proficient, aspire to be better with buoyancy, and just enrolled in DM class.

I have previously dove in Lake Travis at Windy Point, but on a different platform at the site. To say the least, I don't care for Lake Travis because it's very dark and the viz sucks.

The plan for this dive was to go down to the first platform, hang out while the instructor helped with a OW class, and then descend to depth, do a few skills, come back up the chain and stairs, do some more skills and an extended safety stop. The dive team was the instructor, myself, and another student.

We dove to the platform, spent 25 minutes holding the edge of the platform and then after confirming okay began our dive. The instructor led, followed by the other student who was a lady, and me behind her. Travis is challenging for me and I was focusing on keeping my fins off the bottom (45 or so degree slope) and keeping up with my team. At 74 feet I had a problem with my ears. I couldn't equalize. My ears were hurting. I moved my light up and down across my buddy, to signal that I had a problem. Unfortunately she didn't stop, but I did. I stopped, turned vertical (from horizontal) and tried to equalize. No go. At this point I was separated and unable to equalize so I slowly ascended while trying to equalize. After ascending about 15 feet I was able to equalize. At this point I was separated and I stayed put for about 30 seconds before deciding to slowly ascend to 15 feet, do a 3 minute safety stop, and surface to look for my teammates. At one point in my ascent I noticed bubbles and thought about descending, but decided against it because a) we don't dive alone, b) I have no idea who they were, c) the dive was aborted due to separation. When I surfaced none of my team members were there... so I swam to the swim steps and waited. A few minutes later the instructor surfaced.

His first comment was "Your a F****ng Idiot, I'm not going down with you again, get out of the water". I responded with, "do you want to hear what happened?" To which the first statement was repeated. On our way back up to the picnic tables he repeated his tirade of calling me a F***NG idiot several more times. When we set our gear down I asked if we were scrubbing the rest of the day and he called me a F___NG idiot one more time.... at which point I lost my cool and ripped into him verbally for being unprofessional and acting like a 5 year old.

Now, I was wrong for losing my cool and I admit that. It's bad form for a diver to rip up an instructor in front of 2 divemasters, another instructor and 12 students of various levels. However, it's also bad form to cuss out a student.

Not once did the instructor ask what happened, express any concern for my safety, or discuss what I did or did not do correctly.

I spoke to another DM while I was putting my gear away and he said I had done the right thing in regards to the squeeze. I later spoke to the other instructor and he offered to finish the dives. I told him I was shook up from the confrontation and that it would be better if I just left. I didn't want to mess up everyone else's schedule (other students) and I was pissed off about being repeatedly insulted. Diving in a bad mood is a bad idea. (pun intended).

I then spoke to the course director for about 2 hours. Most of the time he tried to pin it back on me telling me that I had endangered my buddy and that I should have gone back up the chain and stayed put. I feel that yes, I could have done things differently, but we had not discussed what to do if separated. Because a dive light was required and no discussion had been done I was operating under night dive rules which require aborting the dive if separated. My buddy was with the instructor and therefore not in immediate harm. I was the one who became separated because my buddy and the instructor did not see my signal that I had a problem.

I made what I thought was the best decision for safe diving. I signaled and my buddy didn't see it. The instructor never stopped and checked with me or my buddy during our descent from 30 to 74 feet.

I feel like the instructor was unprofessional and out of line for cussing at me and refusing to debrief the dive. I don't feel like the course director was concerned enough about the incident and I get the impression that I'm seen as the issue.

I've emailed the shop owner, copied the course director, and copied the instructor and outlined that I think this is unacceptable. I've indicated that I won't do business with them if this isn't dealt with. I also attached a copy of the dive profile to my email (from the computer).

My expectation is that this is a QA issue and that the instructor should be referred to PADI QA by the shop. That would demonstrate to me that the shop values customer service, acknowledges the problem, and wants to make sure it doesn't happen again. I feel like it's my responsibility as a customer and diver to refer it to QA if the shop owner won't.

Am I right here? This has shaken my trust of the instructors because I feel like there was an attempt to cover up behavior that shouldn't be tolerated.

******* What I wish had happened*****
I believe that this goes back to the dive plan, and in the future I'll try to be more vocal. It's a delicate balance between being assertive and argumentative.

- Instructor should have stated the dive objectives and required buddy and I to plan the dive.
- Instructor should have allowed us to run the dive and only taken control of the skills portion. Maybe one student lead descent and one student lead ascent. This would demonstrate that we have mastery of the material as opposed to being able to just dive the tour.
- Instructor should have covered a separation plan if he didn't want us to surface when separated.
- Instructor should have done meaningful knowledge reviews of course material (as opposed to reading the question and the answers)
- The descent would have been slower because it is a challenging dive and 2 of the 3 divers are relatively new. We would have included check points where we stop, make sure everyone is fine, and then decide to continue deeper.
- Safety should always be the first priority, period.
- Instructor should have expressed concern when we separated, listended to what happened, and debriefed the dive with suggestions on alternate strategies.

 

[SamTHorn]

I hope the instructor was fired?

 

[dwhthediver]

Well having finally read all the posts, and some things stand out, first, if it happened the way the OP wrote it, the instructor deserves at a minimum, stern discipline, you don't ever use that kind of language with a student. Second, he stuck to his guns on not mentioning the shop or instructor. Third, the LDS owner's curious wording in the email the OP shared with the board. But 2 things really stand out, they didn't have enough staff to properly support the training dives they were doing, or the OP would not have to chilled on a platform while his instructor was CA for an open water class, and second, IT TOOK 104 POSTS BEFORE SOMEONE BASHED PADI

 

[RJP]

Update: This is pretty much settled.

I don't expect to provide any more updates at this point.

seeing as your post above is then followed by umpteen more seen below...

Haven't gotten one and not holding my breath for it either.

Never said he screamed it at me..... doesn't matter if you scream or say it in a normal tone, it's still in appropriate. (Jus sayin).

Instructor is apparently out of town for business and so the very busy LDS Owner hasn't had time to talk to him.... or at least that is what I was told today. I'm fine with that explanation. I do believe that the LDS Owner leads a charmed life from a scheduling perspective. I have some more details that I could share, but it would compromise the identify of the shop.

The conversation today was productive and I did get confirmation that this not acceptable behavior. I was also told that my business is/was appreciated and that in the interest of avoiding any drama they were doing the refunds I had requested. For the most part it was simple enough. There were a couple of parts that were sticky, like the dive trip that's coming up sometime in the next 90 days and the DM and DEMP courses. I indicated that I want to finish DEMP. I also indicated that for the moment I want to break the DM course and I'll reconsider it after a few hundred dives. We both agreed that this made good sense. I expect to pay something for the portion of the DM course that is done.

The offending instructor is scheduled on the trip as well. I told them that I could take or leave the trip and that I didn't have to buddy with the instructor. I told them to use it as a wildcard and if they had someone who wanted in, this could make it affordable for them, and if not, I can go provided we can all behave like adults and move on from this. I reiterated that I am not sleeping with the guy, not going to hold his hand, not eating with him, and don't have to room with him.... so realistically it doesn't matter if we are on the same trip. The group is large enough that we won't be on one boat.

Now, for the record I have not had problems with the rest of the instructors there. So if it turns out to simply be a miscommunication between myself and LDS Owner then I'm willing to work through DEMP (I do like that instructor.... very very detailed and thorough) and handle the rest on a case by case basis to rebuild a working relationship.

That's going to sound a bit strange, so just trust me that I can't give you enough detail to make it unstrange without compromising the shop ID. Just suffice to say that today was productive and we covered the points that had heretofore been missing..... which are: (just so nobody is confused)
- What I described as happening would be inappropriate.
- It should not happen again.
- They are sorry it happened (already done)
- They appreciate my business.

I say "what I described" because everyone can agree that I am describing something. That lets us move forward and not get stuck in a he said - she said. I told them that only one person heard it from start to finish and that everyone else didn't tune in until I chewed the instructor out for multiple insults.

We also talked about the secondary issue and the LDS Owner response to it... which was that the Director of Training (who I thought was the Course Director) didn't really cover my expected points and instead took me to task over some stuff that didn't seem quite right.... (shame on you for having an issue, you abandoned your buddy, use a sep plan from another dive, at another platform with another instructor, etc)

So the bottom line is:
- They are giving me pretty much what I asked for a refund on.
- We need to check logistics and schedules before determining the outcome on the DEMP Class, but I've indicated a willingness to complete some or all of it. (o2 and Adv. o2 simply need a practical skills portion because offending instructor had kidnapped dollies and we couldn't perform the CPR/o2 portion without them so we postponed that portion).
- I indicated that I hadn't set out to fire them, and that I would be willing to try and get past this for the upcoming trip.
- I indicated that if it was simpler, I'd bow out of the trip as well. Worst case is I might be stuck with airfare, but I'm pretty sure I'll be going to Cozumel at some point.
- I got the impression that they had not talked to the Instructor at length.... I asked explicitly about why he had felt compelled to do what he did. I even asked if there had been something wrong with my diving that I needed to know about.

This is pretty much the ideal resolution and the pieces will take some more time to flesh out with the schedules involved. It just goes to show that remaining rational and reasonable makes it easier to resolve things.

I really admire the timeless grains of wisdom that come from Asian cultures. This is a jem!

Haven't heard a peep from the instructor.... I thought for a moment when writing to the LDS owner initially.... and then copied the Director of Training (who I mistook as the Course Director) and the Instructor. That is the professional thing to do, let someone know you have an issue in an above board manner. Backstabbing and blindsiding are not cool.

I don't think screaming at her would have done much. In fact screaming about a dive is really pointless. Having a discussion about what we did, why we did it, and what could have been done differently is how you learn and why I took a PADI course in the first place.

Agreed. If I'd had so much as an inkling that it was coming I would have been out of the water and out of range.

I felt that separation protocol required me to stay put until my buddy team surfaced. Lest they think I'm lost and start searching for me... Floating where you lost them as opposed to 50 feet away at the platform stairs isn't a big deal. Instructor surfaced at the stairs anyhow and appears to have done a 3 minute safety stop on the stairs. Considering that I did a stop, surfaced, and swam to the platform and hung out for a minute or two. Only thing I can conclude is that it took them a minute to realize they had lost me and they followed the chain up instead of surfacing inside the swim area.

If you get separated and then leave the dive site (go to the tables away from the water) then you do deserve to be yelled at.... in that case your buddy could reasonably conclude you were in deep trouble and hadn't surfaced. That isn't the case here. I was calmly waiting at the surface, not mad, not excited.

From my perspective it's not an unexpected issue. Becoming separated on a deep dive in limited viz is something I would anticipate. So you regroup at the surface, evaluate the problem, plan a solution, and go again if everyone is okay with it. As I've said before..... no reason to "push" a dive to happen.

I emailed them the evening the problem occurred.... and didn't get a peep back from anyone for over 36 hours. I understand that not everyone lives in email... but really? an instructor, Director of Training, and LDS Owner(s) don't check their email for a day and a half..... I suppose it's possible, just not likely. I already knew that the LDS Owner had been briefed when the incident occurred.

So I guess the surprise there is that it took 2.5 days to get a "I'm sorry" and then it was coupled with "But... this guy is terrific"


I never asked them to fire him. I don't think someone deserves to lose their teaching status over one incident... .regardless of how absurd it is. I did ask them to do what I would expect any other business to do.... it's Customer Service 101.

- Acknowledge the wrong or perceived wrong.
- Apologize.
- Restate the standard (We don't do this)
- Assure the standard (It won't happen again)
- Request the business.

When a company doesn't follow that it can look more like a cover up.
- Acknowledge the issue.
- Attack the complainer
- Ignore the problem.
- Apologize, but deflect responsibility.
- Hope it goes away.

There is a third scenario that can play out.
- Acknowledge the issue.
- Apologize for it.
- End the business relationship because the customer is unprofitable or unpleasant.

I doubt I'm unprofitable, and you normally don't invite customers you don't like (aka unpleasant) to go hang out at the bar with the staff or have a beer after class (I'm Just sayin...) I don't drink, but I appreciate the offer.

Well put.... and obviously you have dove Travis....

 

[sabbath999]

IT TOOK 104 POSTS BEFORE SOMEONE BASHED PADI

That is a sure sign that the end times are here...