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What would your ideal training agency look like?

Discussion in 'Basic Scuba' started by ScubaWithTurk, Jan 18, 2020.

  1. Diving Dubai

    Diving Dubai Instructor, Scuba

    # of Dives: 1,000 - 2,499
    Location: Ras Al Khaimah, UAE
    You are making a direct link between dive count and ability, which has been previously discussed. Time underwater doesn't guarantee a certain ability

    The important part is there has to be a minimum entry requirement. Who is to say someone with 40 dives has less ability and inferior skills to someone with 100 dives,

    You're taking AN/DP at 250? dives, yet the entrance criteria is 25 OW dives. Would you be against someone with 40 dives and AN/DP entering a DM programme?

    What about *grits teeth* someone with 40 dives and a GUE-F tech pass?

    What we are saying is that there needs to be a performance assessment in addition to the minimum entry requirement to see if a candidates core skills and abilities meet the entry needs and expectations of a course.

    After that like any course they exit (certification) parameters should ensure a minimum standard (most examines only prove you've met or exceeded the minimum requirements)

    Dive count alone is a poor measure or ability of skill
    chillyinCanada and ScubaWithTurk like this.
  2. Lorenzoid

    Lorenzoid ScubaBoard Supporter Staff Member ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: I just don't log dives
    Location: Atlanta, USA
    How about a unicorn?
  3. Diving Dubai

    Diving Dubai Instructor, Scuba

    # of Dives: 1,000 - 2,499
    Location: Ras Al Khaimah, UAE
    You know the point I was trying to make (and I have no idea the minimum number of dives someone can be GUE-F certified in)

    I'm trying to get across that experience and ability cannot be judged purely on dive count. However There has to be a minimum requirement for entry to any con ed course - If a GUE-F candidate arrived on my course I would have certain expectations of them before hand and assume core skills are sorted.

    Obv previous training (and I would like to see progression slowed down a little i.e. a minimum number of dives/hrs in water between courses) and what else? Dive count is/hrs in water is the only other constant you can really use across the board even if it is flawed.

    Another good if extreme example.

    Had 2 guys, early 20's relocated here with family. Both cave certified took our DM course. Lovely guys, and as you'd expect their core skills were impeccable

    They absolutely struggled with guiding. Boat briefs, standing up in front of strangers and delivering a brief (with confidence and some humour) was one because they were overly self conscious which affected confidence

    But their biggest issue was that they were so used to diving with highly competent divers, dealing with the average diver was a massive struggle - kinda rabbit in the headlights at first. With counselling and mentoring of course they over came this.

    But on paper these guys should have breezed through the course - but their previous and not insignificant experience didn't prepare them for that part - and indeed at first their previous experience (always diving with competent divers) was a
    Schwob, NothingClever and Lorenzoid like this.
  4. Jcp2

    Jcp2 Literally virtually diving ScubaBoard Supporter

    It’s hard to soar like an Eagle when you’re surrounded by turkeys.
  5. Eric Sedletzky

    Eric Sedletzky Contributor

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
    Location: California
    Separate the training schools from the certification agency to stop the fox from guarding the hen house.
    Too many all-in-one agencies are turning out too many incompetent divers just to keep the line moving and get the money. There should be an unbiased testing-only agency with integrity that issues the final certifications. Where you get your training is your business, either mentored, self taught, diving school, dive club, whatever.
    chillyinCanada and Schwob like this.
  6. Angelo Farina

    Angelo Farina Marine Scientist

    # of Dives: 1,000 - 2,499
    Location: Parma, ITALY
    As said, I worked in both models, and each of them has its own benefits and down sides.
    Possibly the best is to do part of the training with one model, part with the other. I went from club-based to become a commercial instructor (which was the common path in eighties).
    But possibly the opposite path is even better: start with a simple PADI or NAUI OW course, which is easy and fast, and really "for everyone". It is a good way of getting in contact with the world of scuba diving. When you need more, instead of spending thousand dollars collecting a lot of "specialisation" courses just for having an excuse for going diving with an instructor, you simply enter a diving club, where very experienced instructors will come diving with your for free (or, better, for fun), organizing weekends or holidays (often at discounted prices), and your diving activity will be easier and cheaper.
  7. KenGordon

    KenGordon Rebreather Pilot

    Start by forming a branch. Start a BSAC club

    You may need to consult on insurance. The BSAC 3rd party cover explicitly excludes the US and Canada. There might be a bit of a bootstrapping problem with the Instructor Training Scheme, but for sure there are expats, a BSAC Centre in Florida and a bloke in Tulum. Instructor crossovers only take a one day course so existing commercial agency instructor can move over if they can get to a place the course is running.

    BSAC have franchises in Asia, all things are possible.
  8. KenGordon

    KenGordon Rebreather Pilot

    BSAC Ocean Diver (OW equivalent 20m) includes Nitrox. They don’t have to actually dive it but get taught about it and the advantages and limitations. They do have to measure some gas, I suppose air would do.

    It also includes a CBL, both in the pool and in open water from 6m.

    Back in the day the first level BSAC course was the equivalent of the current Ocean Diver and Sports Diver combined and included rescue and deco. That could take a long time but probably not 100 hours.
  9. TMHeimer

    TMHeimer Divemaster

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
    Location: Dartmouth,NS,Canada(Eastern Passage-Atlantic)
    Yes. In a nutshell, doing and teaching are different, though one can help the other. Soloing as a clarinetist with a Masters in performance and teaching beginning 6th Grade Band are two different mindsets.
    NothingClever likes this.
  10. JasmineNeedsGills

    JasmineNeedsGills Contributor

    Due to fewer BSAC clubs running Ocean Diver sessions, this is what a lot of clubs actually reccomend to newcomers now - do a PADI OW (or BSAC OD at a commercial centre, though realistically they are few and far between) and then join the club to get diving, and then do additional training from the club from Sport level onwards, as SD doesn't need pool time. I can see why clubs advocate this (saves on pool time and reduces the number of newcomers who drop-out), but I'm not a fan.

    I feel the first course you do (OW/OD) is the most important. It's where you get your initial confidence and a chance to nail down the basics. To me, it's one that absoltely shouldn't be rushed, and where a good instructor-student relationship is essential, and where you can take time to be mentored and gain confidence. It's the one course where I feel the club system gives the most benefit over a dive shop production line, and it's a shame to see it withering on the vine.
    Schwob and Edward3c like this.

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