What's a trust me dive?

[TSandM]

After thinking about this, with the recent threads involved, I'd offer my own definition of a "trust me" dive -- it's a dive you couldn't END (note: not COMPLETE, but END) using your own resources. If you don't know enough to maintain gas reserves to get to the surface, and can't competently execute a long blue water ascent, you shouldn't follow someone deep. If you can't deal with a freeflow in a tunnel, establish an air-share and exit, you shouldn't follow someone into a long lava tube.

But, for example, when I was a brand-new diver, managing my own buoyancy and gas required so much bandwidth that using a compass in low viz and trying to navigate accurately around a local dive site was really pretty much beyond me. I dove with NW Grateful Diver a lot, and used HIM as a navigation resource. But had I gotten separated from him and unsure of where I was, I could swim upslope and eventually reach SOMEWHERE I could exit, or I could have just ascended and done a surface swim in from anywhere in the site. I could END the dive safely.

If you are lacking in the skills, knowledge OR composure to end a dive without your companion, in whatever conditions the particular dive site could be reasonably predicted to throw at you, you are doing a trust me dive.

 

[DevonDiver]

After thinking about this, with the recent threads involved, I'd offer my own definition of a "trust me" dive -- it's a dive you couldn't END (note: not COMPLETE, but END) using your own resources.

Not to be nit-picky... but all dives END... even fatal ones.

I think what we are all talking about (complete/end/finish etc) is that the diver could get back to the boat fit and healthy.

 

[xyrandomyx]

@DevonDiver

'It is also any dive that you could not safely complete without assistance.'

There's something about that definition that bothers me slightly: what exactly do you mean by 'safely complete'?

I'll try to explain what I mean with an example:

We have a local dive site that's popular for training dives. It's a shallow shore with maximum depth of about 9m (~30'). dive with a gently sloping sandy bottom. It's sheltered by a small harbour on one side and coast on the other side that forms a kind of natural breakwater, so it's calm in all but the worst of weather. I did some of my OW checkout dives and AOW training dives there.

I'll admit, though, that in a certain sense I'd probably be unable to 'complete' a dive there without assistance.

A typical plan is to head out to one or more of the several sunken yachts at the site, swim around until you reach your turn pressure and then head back to shore. Visibility is about 4--6m (~13--20') -- 'poor' but standard for the area -- and there's a lot of swimming over a dull, sandy bottom that gives very few visual cues for navigation.

I plan on diving there with my buddy soon, but I expect that on our first few attempts, we're not going to find a sunken yacht. I imagine we'll head out, miss the yacht (with that visibility, we'd only need to a little way off), hit our turn pressure and head back to shore. I'm confident that my navigation skills are good enough to find the shore again and not swim way out to sea. I'm also confident that we could make a surface swim back if we needed to. But, in a sense, we wouldn't really be 'completing' the dive.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I have a particular peeve about "trust me" dives. So much so that I included a chapter on them in my book. Not just what they are, but why they are so ill-advised. You could say much of the entire work is about what one needs to do to avoid them, prepare yourself so you don't have to do them, and the skills and techniques that could help if ever in such a situation.

For example you go on a nice relaxing recreational dive where YOUR actual plan is to follow the DM around. Ok not too bad a thing. But the DM decides to lead the herd into an overhead, or go deeper than recommended limits. At this point your plan has just hit a snag. So what do you do.

Well hopefully part of your plan to follow the DM also included a contingency plan for this and you took note of the headings you were using, noted landmarks and features, and were watching times and air pressures. So now you wave bye bye to DM and go back to the boat or shore. Was this a trust me dive? Could be in that you trusted the DM to do the right thing but when he/she took off and did something stupid - that all went out the window and you now found yourself on your own. But thanks to a little foresight on your part the "trust me" dive really was not in that you had a back up plan.

Where things go wrong is when you don't have that plan and are forced to follow the one the DM or guide has just made up. That is when a real "trust me" dive can literally kill you.

You can follow someone else's plan, just make damn sure you have your own to fall back on. If you don't and don;t have the skills, knowledge, or training to make a back up you take the risk that you could be put in a situation where you are up the creek without a paddle and boat has just sprung a leak in sight of a crocodiles nest.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

@DevonDiver

'It is also any dive that you could not safely complete without assistance.'

There's something about that definition that bothers me slightly: what exactly do you mean by 'safely complete'?

I'll try to explain what I mean with an example:

We have a local dive site that's popular for training dives. It's a shallow shore with maximum depth of about 9m (~30'). dive with a gently sloping sandy bottom. It's sheltered by a small harbour on one side and coast on the other side that forms a kind of natural breakwater, so it's calm in all but the worst of weather. I did some of my OW checkout dives and AOW training dives there.

I'll admit, though, that in a certain sense I'd probably be unable to 'complete' a dive there without assistance.

A typical plan is to head out to one or more of the several sunken yachts at the site, swim around until you reach your turn pressure and then head back to shore. Visibility is about 4--6m (~13--20') -- 'poor' but standard for the area -- and there's a lot of swimming over a dull, sandy bottom that gives very few visual cues for navigation.

I plan on diving there with my buddy soon, but I expect that on our first few attempts, we're not going to find a sunken yacht. I imagine we'll head out, miss the yacht (with that visibility, we'd only need to a little way off), hit our turn pressure and head back to shore. I'm confident that my navigation skills are good enough to find the shore again and not swim way out to sea. I'm also confident that we could make a surface swim back if we needed to. But, in a sense, we wouldn't really be 'completing' the dive.

Coming back alive and unhurt with new knowledge of the site, your skills, and your buddy's skills is completing a dive. Did you meet your objective if you don't find the yacht? Only you can answer that. But I would consider at least one objective met - dive made safely and had fun doing it! You adjust it so that you have several objectives and set your self up so that if one is not met you still succeeded at another; result is confidence and knowledge base expanded and next time you may meet the other.

 

[xyrandomyx]

After thinking about this, with the recent threads involved, I'd offer my own definition of a "trust me" dive -- it's a dive you couldn't END (note: not COMPLETE, but END) using your own resources. If you don't know enough to maintain gas reserves to get to the surface, and can't competently execute a long blue water ascent, you shouldn't follow someone deep. If you can't deal with a freeflow in a tunnel, establish an air-share and exit, you shouldn't follow someone into a long lava tube.

But, for example, when I was a brand-new diver, managing my own buoyancy and gas required so much bandwidth that using a compass in low viz and trying to navigate accurately around a local dive site was really pretty much beyond me. I dove with NW Grateful Diver a lot, and used HIM as a navigation resource. But had I gotten separated from him and unsure of where I was, I could swim upslope and eventually reach SOMEWHERE I could exit, or I could have just ascended and done a surface swim in from anywhere in the site. I could END the dive safely.

If you are lacking in the skills, knowledge OR composure to end a dive without your companion, in whatever conditions the particular dive site could be reasonably predicted to throw at you, you are doing a trust me dive.

Ah, in the time it took me to write my post, you provided another definition that I prefer:

'Any dive that you could not safely end without assistance.'

I think it also addresses another part of others' definitions that I don't quite agree with: I don't feel that I have to plan my own dive. I do think that I have to understand and agree with the plan. And, that if I don't agree with the plan, I have two options: give my input and change the plan appropriately, or simply say "enjoy the dive, I'll sit this one out".

For example, if a DM says "just follow me, you'll be OK", that's clearly bad. But, if my buddy proposes a plan, I ask pertinent questions to ensure that I understand his proposed plan, that I'm confident it's within my training and experience and that I have a contigency plan, I don't see what's wrong with following his plan unchanged.

 

[xyrandomyx]

Coming back alive and unhurt with new knowledge of the site, your skills, and your buddy's skills is completing a dive. Did you meet your objective if you don't find the yacht? Only you can answer that. But I would consider at least one objective met - dive made safely and had fun doing it! You adjust it so that you have several objectives and set your self up so that if one is not met you still succeeded at another; result is confidence and knowledge base expanded and next time you may meet the other.

The point I was trying to make that the objective of the dive when I was accompanied by an instructor/ DM was to see the yacht. I'm not able to complete that objective without assistance (well, we'll see when I actually do the dive with my buddy -- perhaps we'll be pleasantly surprised by our navigation skills). I am, however, able to safely end the dive on my own.

In reality, the objectives when I do the dive with my buddy (and no DM) will be to try find the yacht, practice some buoyancy skills on the way out and hopefully get a little better at underwater navigation through our failed attempt to find the yacht.

 

[DevonDiver]

@DevonDiver

'It is also any dive that you could not safely complete without assistance.'

There's something about that definition that bothers me slightly: what exactly do you mean by 'safely complete'?

Safely Complete = Go home alive and well.

There's nothing wrong with aborting a dive, or having a navigation glitch. What I am talking about is getting yourself into situations where your ability to return to the surface safely is not assured. Of course, navigation can be a factor in that - if the circumstances dictate that an inability to navigate back to a certain point would add significant danger.

When I dive, I am always considering 'worst case scenarios'. What will I do now if X, Y or Z happens?

One of those scenarios is; the loss of your dive buddy/group/leader etc.

Going on a trust me dive, where you are reliant upon another diver gives you no contingency in the event that you lose them (or should they fail to meet your expectations of competency, safety or professionalism). Therefore, when divers undertake dives that are at the threshold of, or beyond, their limitations - they really need to ask themselves honestly if they would be comfortable and prudent to undertake that dive without supervision and assistance.

Here's a 'trust me' dive checklist:

1. Would I undertake this dive if I was the most experienced diver present?

2. Is this dive within my recommended limits of training and experience?

3. Do I have, and am I applying, the correct knowledge and skills to plan and conduct all aspects of this dive indepedently?

4. Can I personally deal with any likely emergencies or contigencies, that may arise in any phase of this dive?

5. If I was to find myself separated at any stage of this dive, could I reach the surface/boat safely alone?

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

So, if you have enough gas and enough dive knowledge to get yourself safely to the surface, and the surface is safe, then just following the guide is not a trust me dive?

a 'trust me' dive tends to consist of nothing more than "follow me, you will be ok, I will look after you"

If you are lacking in the skills, knowledge OR composure to end a dive without your companion, in whatever conditions the particular dive site could be reasonably predicted to throw at you, you are doing a trust me dive.

Where things go wrong is when you don't have that plan and are forced to follow the one the DM or guide has just made up. That is when a real "trust me" dive can literally kill you.

Could anyone give links to a typical recreational "trust me" dives that "literally" killed somebody?

Safely Complete = Go home alive and well.

.....

5. If I was to find myself separated at any stage of this dive, could I reach the surface/boat safely alone?

 

[TSandM]

I did omit "safely" from my statement about ending the dive, although I think most people would understand that it was intended

As far as the navigation question goes, one of the things we were taught in cave training is that goal-oriented dives are bad things. If you intend to go out and look around a wreck, but you don't find the wreck, you still did a dive, had time underwater, and may have seen some things you wouldn't have seen if you had gone straight there. (We find some of our best nudibranchs in plain silt bottoms.) You may not have been able to do all the things on the dive plan, but you were able to do the important things -- keep yourself safe, and return to shore.

Abdicating responsibility for navigation can be a reasonable thing, or a bad thing, depending on the circumstances. If you are diving off an anchored boat with no chase capacity, depending on someone else to do the navigation is a "trust me" dive, because you could end up in a lot of trouble if you lose the guide and can't get back to the boat. If you are doing a simple shore dive in a sheltered site, where surface swimming to shore is embarrassing and inconvenient, but perfectly doable, it's far less of an issue if you depend on someone else for your navigation. Obviously, the goal is to be able to do it yourself, but I think in some conditions, simply managing yourself and staying with your buddy may be as much as a brand new diver can do. We dive in very cold water and frequently pretty low visibility, and navigation can really be bewildering in those circumstances. Until you have enough brainpower available to note and process environmental information AND what you get from your gauges, it's a lot easier to go with someone who can make sure you actually find the interesting things that will make the dive more fun. As long as you can get home by yourself, that is!