When do you use a Divemaster (11/9/03)

[flw]

Depends on where you are, I've never ever seen a DM on a boat in the UK, nor would I let one touch my RB if there was one. As SeaJay mentioned, when diving undived or rarely dived sites, it's all guesswork anyway, and slack water is an unknown entity anyway. On well known sites, the skipper will normally be able to tell you how long slack is likely to be/max depth which is fine
Locally there is no dive centre so we have to do everything for ourselves, which probably colours the way I think to be fair.
I've almost given up holiday diving, because I don't like being cattle-herded and told when to surface, forced to stay within no-stop times for no terribly good reason etc etc.

 

[SeaJay]

Big-t-2538 once bubbled...
How can you possibly say that you know more about a foreign sites temp, depth, viz and conditions than a seasoned diver (in this case a DM) without ever having been in the water there?

I dunno... Pathetic, isn't it? That's my point exactly. Why is it that I know more than they do about the site?

 

[annie]

Seajay it's pretty irrelevant what your individual dive style is. In spite of you not wanting anything to do with DMs you should accept that some people do and they're not all beginners. What is so difficult about that concept for you?
About beginners, yes all divers should learn to be responsible for themselves but welcome to the real world, plenty don't, so we do what we can to avoid accidents.
I'm pretty much repeating what others have said.

PS I'm a DM who hates being herded by other DMs. . . .I've DMed holiday divers, experienced divers, I've helped beginnners, I've dived as a buddy with people who wouldn't know what a DM was, who have 1000s of dives and no card etc. . . .guess what they were all great, nobody half as arrogant as you've comes across in this thread. And no, they didn't sugarcoat.

 

[SeaJay]

annie once bubbled...
Seajay it's pretty irrelevant what your individual dive style is.

Sorry? I missed your reference... Who was talking about dive style? And why should you care about my dive style?

In spite of you not wanting anything to do with DMs you should accept that some people do and they're not all beginners. What is so difficult about that concept for you?

Pardon?

"The concept" isn't "difficult" to me... I offered my opinion to the poll (since, like everyone else's, it was solicited) and several people have asked me to further clarify.

...So I did. It spawned a conversation which seemed to be going rather nicely. Well, up to now.

Feel free to use a DM all you want. That's your perrogative... And mine is mine. What's so difficult about that concept to you?

PS I'm a DM who hates being herded by other DMs. . . .I've DMed holiday divers, experienced divers, I've helped beginnners, I've dived as a buddy with people who wouldn't know what a DM was, who have 1000s of dives and no card etc. . . .guess what they were all great, nobody half as arrogant as you've comes across in this thread. And no, they didn't sugarcoat.

Well, whether I've come across as "arrogant" or not, I can assure you that you've come across as a real charmer. Sure, you're just the sort of person that *I* would want to dive with.

Sheesh.

Let me know what boat you're on, k?

 

[JohnVranesevich]

SeaJay once bubbled...

To your face, I'd tell you, "Tough. Suck it up. If you want to dive with me, then you're going to need to ask me politely. Then, if I feel like you might make a good addition to my team, we'll do some simple stuff together so that I can find out whether or not you're good enough for my team. If you are, then we'll consider taking you along, but let's get something clear: You'll be the lackey.

Geeze. I wouldn't let someone with this type of attitude on my boat, PERIOD.

Granted, I'm a new diver, but I've had the great opportunity to be diving with very experienced divers (5,000+ dives). They all seem to welcome the presence of a DM, at the very least to help make sure everyone's on the same page.

The last dive I went on our DM was a woman, and she pretty much acted like the boat mother.

Gave those of us that were throwing up glasses of water and something to keep our mouths wiped with, made sure to hang onto us so we didn't fall overboard when we were puking. Made sure everyone's air was on, and that everyone spent a minute or two to familiarize ourselves with each others gear, drew a pretty little map of the reef we were about to explore, and kept a constant and watchful eye on the flags while we were all down.

Basically, she made sure the newer divers did everything that they were supposed to, and made sure that the "old salts" did everything that they were supposed to do, but might have rushed past otherwise due to the fact that they were "experienced divers".

She had all of our names memorized within the first 5 minutes on board before we ever left dock, and called them out and checked us off her list when we made it back to the surface after each dive.

The dive before that, we had stopped to look at something, and the DM notice the flag hadn't moved in a while (it was supposed to be a drift dive). He free-dove down to 50' or so to check on us, and make sure everything was OK.

What in the hell is wrong with this? Why on earth people like SeaJay take such a holier than thou attitude about such things is above and beyond me?

Personally, I like the idea of a DM, sort of like a football coach for the team. Granted, the coach isn't usually the best of football players, but he makes sure everyone on the team is following the same game plan, and along with the trainer is there to help in case something goes wrong.....

 

[SeaJay]

This has nothing to do with a "holier than thou" attitude.

This has nothing to do with "arrogance."

This has nothing to do with me thinking I'm better or worse or whatever.

I simply don't want anyone else but me to dictate my dives.

I AM entitled to my opinion, y'all, just like you are.

When I dive, it is not a compromise. I dive to stay alive. I am the one that pays the price, and so I am the one that makes the decisions. Period. The last place I want to be "justifying" or "compromising" or "playing political BS" is on the boat, on MY dive.

I don't want anyone outside of the team to even THINK they have an input.

...And I especially am not going to PAY for it.

Call it an "attitude" all you want. I believe that someone who thinks that they need to give me theirs - unsolicited - about my dive, my "style" (where did that come from, anyway?) or my gear is simply unwelcome on MY boat.

And that's the bottom line. If you can't handle it, then don't dive with me.

How would YOU feel about ME telling you how to dive or what to do or where to go, etc.? Now... What if I CHARGED you for it? Silly. You'd tell me to go get bent.

People who have dived with me will tell you that I'm a real easy-going guy who's a great buddy and a good diver. I have lots to learn, but I choose my instructors carefully and I consider them to be the best there is. My skills pale by comparison.

...But I will NOT have someone elect themselves "ruler" of my dive.

...And if you don't agree with that concept, do a few hundred more dives with DM's and tell me how you feel about it.

I'm glad you had a great experience with your DM. Sincerely. If you want your mom on your dive, then great.

I don't agree. And it's got zero to do with ego. I just don't want to be "babied," thanks.

What you found so wonderful I would have found very irritating.

 

[ElectricZombie]

I'm with SeaJay; never dive with a DM...ever! I've never met a DM that I would trust to do much of anything.

Do your own research of the site and get some info from locals. Practice your skills with your buddy and you should be fine. Don't rely on some "expert" to take control of the dive for you.

 

[DennisS]

JohnVranesevich once bubbled...




The last dive I went on our DM was a woman, and she pretty much acted like the boat mother.

Gave those of us that were throwing up glasses of water and something to keep our mouths wiped with, made sure to hang onto us so we didn't fall overboard when we were puking. Made sure everyone's air was on, and that everyone spent a minute or two to familiarize ourselves with each others gear, drew a pretty little map of the reef we were about to explore, and kept a constant and watchful eye on the flags while we were all down.

<snip a lot>

Personally, I like the idea of a DM, sort of like a football coach for the team. Granted, the coach isn't usually the best of football players, but he makes sure everyone on the team is following the same game plan, and along with the trainer is there to help in case something goes wrong.....

Sounds like a nanny. I've never had much use for a DM, if the capt says go about 100 yds forward and to the right, that's all the guidance I need.

 

[turnerjd]

I have to say that I am right up there with SeaJay.

My current level is DM and FFESSM level III. When I dive I know what my skills and abilities are. I have done all the training (above and beyond the agency basics) that is necessary to make me a more than competent diver, however, I am, and always will be aware that there are always now things to learn.

If I dive for example on a new wreck I need a few key bits of information from the boats instruments (depth and heading the wreck lies on) then from the captains paperwork I would like currents and tidal information. I will almost always have spoken to somebody that has already dived the wreck and got some basic information from them. After that, I plan my dive, and I dive my plan (to borrow the PADI phrase). I don't want anybody telling me what to do.

From what I have seen, DMs would be totally unnecessary if basic courses were more setailed, and required greater skill levels to qualify. DMs seem to be there to make up for the lack of basic skills in a lot of divers.

So, for the person that asked the original question, DMs are a safety net. If you feel that you are too new to the sport, or that your skills need polishing up, go diving and hire a DM to look after you initially. The more you dive, the better you get, and soon you will realise that a DM is not at all necessary, and that you become independent.

Simply dive, dive, dive.

as somebody once said - practive makes purfect - so there is a good reason to go diving this weekend

Jon T

 

[MikeFerrara]

I've only skimmed the thread but I think the potential value of a DM depends.

I've never been much for traveling the worlds resort dive sites so the only time I've ever been under the supervision of a DM was in training. Most of my fun diving is Great Lakes wrecks or caves. Diving off a charter boat in the great lakes we don't have a DM as a guid but by law (I believe) a commercial boat must have a mate who often has the surface duties of a DM. This person is usually a DM or instructor and often a licensed captain. Even experienced technical divers diving a 200 ft wreck will get a briefing on the wreck and the procedures and rules of the boat. The boats servicing the recreational sites may put some one in the water and, I can tell you from experience, they are often needed. I've crewed on a Lake Michigan charter and I was one busy puppy both in and out of the water. You see all kinds of stuff and the card one has in their posket is gives little indication of what to expect from them.

While I'm strongly against trust-me dives, an in-water guid can enhance the enjoyment of a dive. I recently dived the wreck of the Vernon off Two Rivers Wisconsin. It was a trimix dive with the bottom at about 200 ft with the bow at 150 and some change (if I remember right). My wife and I ended up diving with a lady who is a regular on the boat and has done many dives on the wreck. We saw way more on that dive than we would have had we dived without her. It wasn't in any way a trust-me dive and she wasn't a baby sitter though she certainly was in the role of a guid. I will point out that she may very well have been a way for the captain to check us out. While tech boats don't hold your hand the way some rec boats do or assume that you're a tourist wanting to look at the reef and aren't much of a diver, they do often ask for references before allowing you to dive. You're card just may not be enough. Unless they know you or you have references that they know, you may not get on the better trips. Some dives are even by invitation only. In that case you not only need the credentials but also a reputation. You work your way up in the community. It can't work that way in many resort environments.

As a certified diver, should you rely on a DM for your safety? No. Should you dive beyond your training or abilities because you're with a DM? No. Can you benefit from the services of an experienced local? Yes. In the eyes of the captain or boat owner, the DM is a known quantity and you may not be.