When is a cave a cave?

[lord.harshil]

Regarding the OP, I don't think anyone was referring to technical diving, caves, or penetration diving. What I said was "I believe if two advanced divers want to go into a cavern in-sight of the surface, with proper equipment and exercising good judgement, I don't think they are "tempting fate at all."

Cavern diving is by definition, a form of recreational diving. This means among other things, that divers can obtain recreational-level Specialty Diver certifications in cavern diving from open-water training agencies such as NAUI, PADI, SDI, ACUC and SSI.

Others may argue, Cavern diving is the exploration of permanent, naturally occurring overhead environments while remaining within sight of their entrances. As you will note, my comment mentioned within sight of the surface which entails little or no penetration whatsoever. For this type of diving, a "cavern specialty" is not recommended by any diving certification agency of which I'm aware. It's analogous to non-penetration wreck diving.

As an Instructor I promote and have taught a number of specialties (Cavern diving included). If any diver decides to penetrate a wreck, cavern, pipeline, anything, further training is required. I do not however take a "you're gonna die" attitude if someone pokes his head into a cavern or a wreck. It's all about diving within your capabilities and exercising good common sense.

I think what DCBC is saying is :

if you've got the skills and the judgement, a 10 foot penetration shouldnt kill you.

A cavern is just another environmental hazard to be wary about. OW divers in crystal clear waters can die getting tangled up in fishing lines just as easily. In EVERY scenario in diving, you need good judgement to stay alive. If you've got bad judgement, you're just an accident waiting to happen.

Some divers out there might be good enough to do a short penetration in a spacious enough non silty cavern without killing themselves. I've never done this but if I had the chance to, I probably would unless my instincts kicked in before I entered. I highly doubt that I would die, but I'm sure that there has been at least one Darwin award winner who managed to kill themselves in the very spot.

I don't think cavern diving without sufficient training should ever be promoted. If a diver chooses to do it himself after much deliberation, fine its his life. Giving false hope to a newly minted OW diver, bad idea.

Perhaps DCBC's words could be taken either way depending on the reader. To me, he said be smart, be sensible, a cavern course cert card doesnt mean you're invulnerable. To others, maybe it sounded like go ahead little boy, swim into the cavern to your death.

shrug.

 

[UCFKnightDiver]

I think what DCBC is saying is :

if you've got the skills and the judgement, a 10 foot penetration shouldnt kill you. Certainly could in certain systems, if you silt them up, hence a blanket statement like this doesnt work

A cavern is just another environmental hazard to be wary about. OW divers in crystal clear waters can die getting tangled up in fishing lines just as easily. In EVERY scenario in diving, you need good judgement to stay alive. If you've got bad judgement, you're just an accident waiting to happen. Every open water class is hinged on the caveat that you can always swim to the surface in case of an emergency, you always have that opition. In a cavern or cave you don't. Oh and to your getting entangled example, students are tought to carry a knife in open water, but are not taught the skills which one would need to dive caves and caverns safely

Some divers out there might be good enough to do a short penetration in a spacious enough non silty cavern without killing themselves. I've never done this but if I had the chance to, I probably would unless my instincts kicked in before I entered. I highly doubt that I would die, but I'm sure that there has been at least one Darwin award winner who managed to kill themselves in the very spot. But you might, why dont you just get the training, that way you are ALOT less likely to kill yourself

I don't think cavern diving without sufficient training should ever be promoted. If a diver chooses to do it himself after much deliberation, fine its his life. Giving false hope to a newly minted OW diver, bad idea. I agree with you here.

Perhaps DCBC's words could be taken either way depending on the reader. To me, he said be smart, be sensible, a cavern course cert card doesnt mean you're invulnerable. To others, maybe it sounded like go ahead little boy, swim into the cavern to your death. But a cavern course does give you the skills and knowledge to make you less vulnerable/more invulnerable

shrug.

Ryan.

 

[DCBC]

No amount of ow diving will prepare you for the cave environment. There are many people that died figuring things out on there own. Common sense would tell you to seak proper training. It took Sheck 6 years to do the grand traverse at peacock springs, if you take a zero to hero course you can do it in one week. there is no need to reinvent the wheel nor is there any reason to be dead wrong about your ideas of an overhead environment.

Agreed.

Again, I was not talking about a cave environment. Although I cannot comment on all Advanced Divers in the world, those I teach have operated in zero visibility and are aware that clarity may not readily return and this is something to avoid. They are taught that this is part of the assessment process and an extension of the dive plan that a prudent diver uses. You change the plan accordingly to insure the safety of the dive.

During my training, I have happily learned off of the mistakes diving pioneers made that preceded me. In-turn I try to give back to those I work with and teach. The wheels on the bus...

 

[lord.harshil]

I'm planning on going all the way mate. Trimix, full cave, full wreck, rebreather. Thats the end goal for the training process, all the while learning from mentors and the like. Not planning on getting myself killed and I have (i think) the instincts to not venture beyond my limits (as defined by me, not by my cert card).

You'll forgive me for shunning courses. I've grown up with instructors who have refused to teach an OW diver anything more than reciprocal navigation, insisting they take a navigation specialty course. overweighted an OW diver for the first 2 dives, and at the end of the course, told them, come back and take PPB specialty and i'll teach you how to hover properly.

hence I now place more emphasis on the instructor and which agency or if they are even gonna issue me a cert card can go to hell

 

[ucfdiver]

Here's the accidents that make me not want to suggest anyone enter a cavern without training.
Death #1-
untitled
Death #2-
untitled

For those of you who have not been there, Royal springs has a fairly large cavern zone, with a NASTY little cave. After about 100-200ft of penetration, the cave gets smaller than you can comfortably fit in back mount, especially as an OW diver with little experience in small areas. These bodies were recovered from 500 ft back in the cave. I have absolutely no doubt that any penetration beyond 100ft in that system was accidental at their skill level. This is a clear case IMO of 2 divers who were going to stay in the light zone.......until it was no longer a light zone due to an errant fin kick, hand movement, or ceiling peculation.

These two divers died a needless death. They didn't even get to see the beauty of the cave that killed them

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

I'm planning on going all the way mate. Trimix, full cave, full wreck, rebreather. Thats the end goal for the training process, all the while learning from mentors and the like. Not planning on getting myself killed and I have (i think) the instincts to not venture beyond my limits (as defined by me, not by my cert card).

You'll forgive me for shunning courses. I've grown up with instructors who have refused to teach an OW diver anything more than reciprocal navigation, insisting they take a navigation specialty course. overweighted an OW diver for the first 2 dives, and at the end of the course, told them, come back and take PPB specialty and i'll teach you how to hover properly.

hence I now place more emphasis on the instructor and which agency or if they are even gonna issue me a cert card can go to hell

Good goals there. You will better understand what Ryan is saying when you do take a cavern course. Its not your fun open water stuff. You will know your limits very quick when you start one of the cave programs.

 

[LiteHedded]

The majority of the ones that died probably did so because they didn't exercise good judgement. This is as true for those with the specialty as those without it.

I hear what you're saying and encourage training, but a specialty card doesn't help you when the *hit hits the fan... People put too much faith in a plastic card and not enough in preparation and attitude.

what makes them qualified to exercise that judgement? they don't know what they don't know.
cave training is more than a plastic card.
or at least it should be...

 

[UCFKnightDiver]

DCBC are you cavern or cave trained? I did not see it in your profile.

 

[Matt S.]

what makes them qualified to exercise that judgement? they don't know what they don't know.

Agreed!

As a new diver... pre-class even... it only took reading one story about a guy silting out a space the size of a small bedroom and nearly not getting out in time to adjust my attitude.

Because I don't know much about cavern/cave diving, I exercise the judgment that I AM qualified for, and stay out.

I am not a special case; I can make a mistake or suffer misfortune and die.

 

[Atomic_Diver]

to add to what ucf diver said about entering into over head enviroment w/o training:

IUCRR - Accident Analysis