Which Camcorder?

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Apple's Final Cut Express 4, CyberLink's PowerDirector 6, Sony Vegas 7.0e, Vegas Pro 8and Vegas Movie Studio Platinum 8, Corel's Ulead VideoStudio 11 Plus, Pinnacle's Studio Plus 11, and Canopus' EDIUS Pro 4.5 video editing software all support the AVCHD format. iMovie '08 allows you to convert AVCHD to the Apple Intermediate Codec format, but does not support AVCHD directly.

Conspicuously absent: Adobe...

thanks wikipedia...

Hey, hey, hey....I only said that they were "slow" to provide support, not that they hadn't :D

Seriously though, its good to see it happening. Most of these companies have implemented the capability in the latter part of this year. AVCHD has great potential, and they knew it was coming for a while now. Adobe has no excuse for sticking their customers with using an intermediary codec in order to edit AVCHD with their "high end" NLE. Adobe says that they plan to add support soon, but programs costing a fraction of Premiere Pro already do.

Also, software support has not been fully implemented in VFX/compositing programs such as After Effects, Combustion, and Shake, and require the use of intermediary codecs. I realize that most people do not use this type of software, but a fair amount of people do, including home users. Also, DVD authoring programs are still behind and most require intermediary codecs. Ulead supports it directly, as does Nero, but I'm told its incredibly slow.

All of these things will be worked out, the same things had to be worked out when HDV was introduced.
 
Thanks for the feedback everyone. I went ahead with the SR5. We are budding Mac users (slowly switching out our PC's for Macs), and seeing that Final Cut Express 4 supports AVCHD was a boon.

I really appreciate all the feedback! :)

Congrats, she's going to enjoy the camcorder.

BTW: I'd love to switch out to a Mac, and if I can ever work out the compatibility issues with the computers at work, I will do it. Good move.
 
My wife and I are new divers; we got certified on April 28th and have done 40 dives since. I have become very interested in underwater photography ....
Given those constraints, is there anything out there that will fit under our tree this year? Any help would be greatly appreciated!

I see you live in So California. I live and dive here too. If you shoot video here you are NOT doing wide angle work. Just like with stills you will have to get close and if you are deeper than about 30 feet you will need light.

I find that the video quality is limited by (1) the water quality and (2) the amount of light you have. So what will you really get with an HD camera? You will actually get beter results with an older DV cam. Get one with the largest CCD sensor you can find. By large I mean the physical size of the chip not the pixel count. Spend about $250 for the camera. then go and buy a light orange filter and a screw on wide angle lens. Wide is good as it gets you closer to the subject

You can do well with a generic (means not made for the camera) housing with simple controls. Even the zero control $200 housing will work. You seal the camera inside, turn it on with the IR remote then dive. The tape runs out in an hour but so does your air. When you get home you edit the tape and remove the 90% of it that is junk.

You can do well on a $500 budget. If you really need light I've seen people use modified UK D8 lights, he took sand paper to the plastic lens to even out the light. wo D8s cost $116. With skill and planning you can do good work with a low cost system. The key is to plan the dive around the shots you need. The thing about video is that you can't do anything else.

Send me a PM if you like. I'm always looking for other local divers who want to do UW Video, not many are into it because it is so much work. I use the "Top Dawg" housing. I like it Top Dawg Underwater Video Housing, Accessories, Lights, Monitor Back, Package Deal

One more thing: Shop for the housing first. Most DV camera do not have a housing available. Make sure the camera you buy does in fact have a housing made for it or that it can fit inside a generic housing.

Generic housing are OK but look at all that air inside. It will take some weight to make it sink. My setup weight in at 14 pounds. Can your wife lug around a 14 pound camera? Can she haul it through the surf?

Find some video editing software too. You will need it. I have Final Cut Express. ( Apple - Final Cut Express ) One feature you REALLY need to have in the software is reasonably sophisticated color correction and color matching if not it will all be green and brown. We don't live in Hawaii.
 
We don't live in Hawaii.

HA! I feel ya! But I honestly love our murky waters… The only tropical dives I’ve done were in Hawaii, and while it was great to be in some warm blue waters and the fish and corals were all very colorful and pretty, I found myself missing our kelp forests. Sure 70+ foot viz is great, but there’s just too much to look at! When I dive CA I look at the details in what I can see because, well, that’s what I can see…

I did look into housings for the camcorder I decided to get her, and Ikelite does make one specifically for the SR5. I’m sure she’ll be investing in a housing and some lights, but I’m not sure when. I just wanted to 1) prod her into moving forward with what she wants to do, and 2) give her a bit of a start so the financial investment does not seem as daunting…

Next time we’re able to hit the water I’ll send you a PM. I think we’ll be at Crescent on the 15th, but we’ll be doing our U/W navigation class, so neither of us will be shooting pictures (it’s a rule we have, when we’re learning; no shooting). But next time we’re out on a fun dive, I’ll let you know!

Thanks again for all the help and wonderful feedback!


Sean
 
I'm looking! But could someone please enlighten me on pro/cons regaring storage medias in camcorders?

I see some recommend HV20. It's still almost 1000 USD here, and I thought "tape" was obsolete now that one can get hd's instead!:D
 
I'm looking! But could someone please enlighten me on pro/cons regaring storage medias in camcorders?

I see some recommend HV20. It's still almost 1000 USD here, and I thought "tape" was obsolete now that one can get hd's instead!:D
Currently Sony, Canon (and probably others I've forgot) sell current model HDV camcorders that still use tape. Pro's are that it's somewhat affordable and convenient to change tapes, cons are that you have to capture footage off the camcorder linearly and in real time.

The new HDD camcorders being sold by Sony, JVC, etc. use a different compression method, AVCHD to store video. Pro's are the ability to quickly skip to any point in a recording - HDD's are faster than a tape transport - and the obvious one of being able to store a lot more footage on the drive. Downside might be where to store all that data...

AVCHD software support is mostly universal, see my and DaFireMedic's previous posts in this thread for exceptions.

One thing that's interesting is that on the higher end prosumer line, Sony at least is still using tape. The V1U, Z1U and FX1 (and recently discontinued) FX7 all use it.

However the latest pro Sony XDCAM EX now is available with solid state media options. It uses Express Card high-speed flash media for storage.

In their consumer line they've recently introduced the CX7 which is an AVCHD format camera storing video on Sony's proprietary Memory Stick Pro Duo card. It's currently limited by short recording time at the highest setting using a 4GB MCD card but I think we'll all be using something similar in a few years when that increases. Big advantage that I see is that it should do a lot better on battery life since there's no drive motor to power. And media transfers should be even faster than HDD's.

There are also HDD models being released by Sharp, JVC, Panasonic and others but I only follow Sony. camcorderinfo is a good source for info on current models.

btw, the HV20 is camcorderinfo.com's camera of the year...
 
I'm looking! But could someone please enlighten me on pro/cons regaring storage medias in camcorders?

I see some recommend HV20. It's still almost 1000 USD here, and I thought "tape" was obsolete now that one can get hd's instead!:D

The standard answer is that HDD is better for convenience, MiniDV is better for editing.

Tape will eventually be obsolete, but it is not yet. As sjspeck said, prosumer cameras almost exclusively use tape, although some have gone to solid state. Tape is not going away for a while yet, at least until the price of solid state recording media comes down.

The big plus to hard drives is that they offer the convenience of drag and drop capturing, as opposed to real time capturing associated with MiniDV tapes. All things being equal, this convenience would be very nice indeed. Real time capture is not as bad as it sounds though, as I just start the capture and go do something else until it is done. In addition, HDD's offer long recording times compared to individual tapes.

As far as cons go, hard drives are still not as reliable as tape heads, and far more expensive to repair, which is why solid state will be the likely replacement for tape in the long run. Then there is the much more contentious issue of video quality, which I address with the codecs below.

The pros for MiniDV tapes is that you can replace one when it is full. When a hard drive is full, you must have a computer available with you on which to place your video if you want to keep shooting. Also, with tapes you have an instant archive.

As has been said, MiniDV camcorders use the HDV (MPEG 2) format, whereas HDD camcorders use the AVCHD codec. MPEG 2 is an older codec and AVCHD is theoretically more efficient. AVCHD is the way of the future for consumer camcorders, and it will soon surpass HDV. However, the current consumer iteration of AVCHD is still running at a much lower bitrate than HDV, (25 mb/s for HDV compared to 13-15 mb/s for AVCHD) and though quality wise it would surpass HDV if operating at the same bitrate, they currently do not. AVCHD is also compressed at nearly double the ratio of HDV, which saves space but there are still a few bugs associated with that that are being worked out. AVCHD also uses substantially more CPU power to work with than HDV.

In addition, AVCHD has still not caught up with HDV in software support. As was pointed out by sjspeck, most NLE's now support AVCHD in some fashion, but software support has not been fully implemented in other areas, such as VFX/compositing programs like After Effects, Combustion, Shake, and others which require the use of intermediary codecs. Most consumer level users do not use such programs, but many do. Almost all experts agree that AVCHD is still a few years away from reaching its full potential.

All this stuff is being worked out, and as I said, AVCHD is the way of the future. My opinion is not meant to discourage someone from buying AVCHD, nor to insult someone who already has. It is already a fine codec (getting better all the time) with the potential to be far better than HDV. In most applications, you would not be able to tell any difference in video quality. There are some good reasons for choosing it, but with the current implementation I would still choose HDV for the type of stuff that I use it for.

The reason that I recommend the HV20 for land based videography is that it still offers the highest quality video available in a consumer level camcorder. It has external mic and headphone jacks (critical for me) and it offers true 24p. It also surpasses the HC7, it's main competition, in low light capability. The HV20 won every "Camcorder Of The Year" category in which it was eligible in Camcorderinfo.com's annual awards. They are usually pretty reliable in their info.

CamInfo Selects 2007 - News, Guides and Tips

But again, it does not have a Lanc, which is potentially a very big feature for underwater videography. So if you want an electronic housing, buy a different camcorder.
 
Camcorder technology is moving fast and it seems the mfr's are maintaining a 12 month or less life cycle. One can always wait for the next best thing, or decide to bite the bullet, buy and accept their equipment will be discontinued or replaced within 12 months. I have no regrets on my Sony FX7/Gates housing. It is giving me everything and more than I expected.

As a hobbyist and vacation diver, I prefer tape over HDD because it's easier to put in a new tape than to bring a laptop to transfer footage.

The HV20 certainly has the reputation as the best current consumer level camcorder. It would be nice to see some UW footage though and I wonder just how easy or difficult it is to set manual white balance.
 
It would be nice to see some UW footage though and I wonder just how easy or difficult it is to set manual white balance.

It would be nice to show you some....:D

But sadly, I do not have any yet, save for some swimming pool tests (and I think I have erased those).

I was able to rig my mechanical controls to access the manual white balance, but it requires a straight in press on the joystick, which means that my camcorder has to be aligned perfectly with the control rod. If it is not, then the joystick goes to the side and I won't have manual white balance for the dive. Not the ideal situation, but it works and being that I did not buy the camcorder with underwater videography in mind, I will have to make do with what I have. I'm sure that factory made housings have a better solution.

On land, the manual white balance sets quite easily.
 
Sony har slightly better wide angle than Canon. How much value should I put in that for UV-video? I'm considering the Sony HDR-HC7E against Canon HV20E. The Canon is cheaper though.

And thanks for the answers to my question up here, great info! I have learned a lot in two days! However, I started at zip so I have some left to make a good choice based on my own opinions. I can always trust others to make it for me, and this time I might have to. It's Christmas soon, and it puts some pressure on it....
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

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