Who knows about swimming pools?

[Thalassamania]

The pools we had at the university had what looked like 4 inch lines coming up through their bottom. They appeared to have one way valves in them ... but perhaps not, in any case when the pools were drained for resurfacing, ground water came up through those lines.

 

[TwoBitTxn]

The 4" line woulld have been the main suction line. The hydrostatic relief would have been a separate line with a plug in it. The plug would have been removed as soon as the pool was drained or shortly before.

 

[Ed L.]

One other minor thing. being that you are replacing and installing hardware. Any job over $500 in the state of California requires a contractors license. Since you won the bid they will see it the same way if you bill every pool at under $500. They will consider it all one job.

 

[fstbttms]

One other minor thing. being that you are replacing and installing hardware. Any job over $500 in the state of California requires a contractors license.

I find that a little hard to believe. Can you back that up with a link or other documentation?

 

[trackerm]

Hello Guys. My name is Jeff and I live out on the east coast. I caught your thread by accident and have read through it. I wanted to give you guys a heads up on what you are getting yourself into

The vgb has many components to it. I am in the pool business for several years now and what I encounter is shocking, and scary. Apartment complexs, schools, universities are all challenged with installed new drain covers. The vgb does not apply to back yard pools, only pools where the general public will swim, this includes the smaller KIDDIE pools.

First, not all drains are the same and not all drains can be fitted with a drain cover. You cannot simply pull a twelve inch square drain cover off the shelf and put in on a sump with four screws and you are done. Some sumps are old or damaged and need repair.Some will have the existing frame degraded or broken where its unservicable and needs to be replaced. Sumps and drain covers are THE most neglected part of the pool. Pools I service are twenty and thirty years old are most require jackhammering and cementing to get it up to specs.

Secondly, you have to address the sump dimensions. Most drain covers require a minimim of one and a half times the pipe diameter from the drain cover to the top of the pipe. If this requirement is not met, the sump will need work to get the SUMP in compliance, as wel as the drain cover.

next, flow rates, the flow rate cannot exceed one and a half feet per second velocityof water through the drain cover. This all relates to flow. Pump curves, TDH total dynamic head, max rating of the pump. Is it a single drain or duals, or maybe triple sumps. All this need to be calculated and signed off by a professional enginner BEFORE installation.

All work must be submitted to the Department of Healt in New York State when a public pool is changed or altered. The department of health will review all changes and a PE will sign off and they will certify the changes have been approved. Its only then, can a change be made to a public pool. Also, your local department of health may or may not want divers to do this type of work.

I am not trying to turn guys off to the work, But come on, dont put yourself in a position of LIABILITY. look up shoreline pools in connecticut, the owner is indicted for manslaughter because he did not build the pool up to code. A child DIED because he did not follow the code. He is going to jail because he did not follow the code. a family is at a lost because he did not follow the code. Making a quick buck sounds good. A dead child over a installed and an hour of your time and a couple of hundred in your pocket would not be something i would want to see a diver or anyone else get involved in.

You see, thats what these apartment complexs and commercial pool operators want. Some unknowing diver to say yes, I will install a drain cover for 150 dollars. The owner of the pool gets the job done CHEAP and when a kid get entangeled, or there is an injury or death guess who they are coming after. YOU.

Some drain covers are in the thousand of dollars, especially stainless steel. Put a stainless steel cover in a pool and its not grounded or bonded and you have a problem, the electro potential is there and all you need is one kid to dive down and touch it and SHOCK, he is unconscious. Who are the lawyers coming after, YOU.

Not to mention, when the inspectors come around to the pool and ask the owners or operators if they have the drain covers in place and the owner says yes, I hired a diver. The inspector is going back to his office to see if the plans were submitted for approval. No plans, you get a phone call for violation of sanitary law, not to mention the loss of respect from the DOH guys who are out there to police shoddy work.

so guys it comes to this and take it from a guy who does this day in and day out. Dont get jammed up into something you arent too sure of. Dont put yourself in the position of making a quick buck in a nice clear warm pool only to have the sump, flow rates, and no approval to put a drain cover on. Chances are the drain cover you install may not be the correct drain cover.

One last thought. A month after you put the drain cover on their pump blows. They put a new pump on that pumps more water a minute than the last one. That cover you just put on a month ago is USELESS and violates the law

trackerm@frontiernet.net

Be safe guys

Jeff

 

[trackerm]

i get phone calls daily from people who tell me can you fit the cover without taking measurements on the pool Answer is no. a lot of pool operators who need covers are taking way too many short cut just to get the covers on cheap. Had a big college in new jersey guy did not want to allow me to dive the pool, take measurements. He said just put the drain covers on there that have the VGB stamp. TOld me he had a friend who was a navy seal, told me he had approval from the department of health. he had friends everywhere in the business but was calling me to install his drain covers. TOLD ME LIES and i told him the job wasnt for me. wasnt going to do it his way. His way is ILLEGAL, but he wants to save money and find a guy who is going to put a cover on and he and the college washes their hands of liability and sticks it on you because the facility wanted to take short cuts and some eager diver, who is thinking of a easy bucks gets nailed to the cross.

had another pool call me a month ago. dual drains only wanted to replace one with a VGB cover. I dropped my card and told them when they wanted to replace both to give me a call. not their guy

I have people call me all the time and ask HOW MUCH?? I cant give a price sight unseen. the parker meridian called me from NYC. pool is roof top 78 floors up. Can you give me a price? sure, i can ball park it. But that is for drain cover replacement depending on what size cover you have. Small covers are cheap, larger covers are expensive. so you want me to shoot you a price on a job sight unseen with no blueprints? kinda hard to do. So if you sign a contract saying you will replace the covers and no inspection was done on the pool, you are screwed. You open the drain cover to find the sumps are violation of code and now you get sued for a job not completed. put the drain cover on there just to avoid court and someone gets sucked in, you get sued or jail time because you contributed to a person injury or death.

Any gypsies out there that want the work, they will do it and for next to nothing with no insurance or license. call a dive shop and they may or may not do the work. just because a person is dive certified doesnt mean they are certified to do this type of work. Buyer beware, diver beware.

 

[fstbttms]

Jeff contacted me last week and we had a phone conversation and exchanged a few e-mails as well about this issue. I understand that it is in Jeff's best interest to dissuade people like me from doing this kind of work; he is a pool professional and it is money out of his pocket when pool owners find divers off the street to do it cheap. But I was hesitant to take this job from the get-go and now he has convinced me that I don't want to be involved in it. Not to mention, the scope of work keeps changing beyond the original bid but nobody is talking about paying me more money. I have installed one cover and it went fine with no problems. But once I am paid for that job, I'm backing out of the deal. There is too much liability and not enough profit for me to continue.

 

[trackerm]

Thanks fstbttms. Its not a matter of any one diver taking away work from a pool professional, its also a matter of installing the drain cover properly to meet specifications as stipulated by the Vriginia Grahaem Baker law. Drain cover selection is based on particular pool characteristics, pump, flow, max flow, amount of drains present, sump dimensions, condition of the sump etc.. I had a pool that is 50 years old i took a look at and everything about it is out of code. Sure, i could slap a drain cover on there and say presto, you have a vgb cover. Its a matter of the job being done, installed, and performed incorrectly. To the unknowing person or diver that gets involved in this the potential liability is tremenous, not to mention possiblity of jail time. I have a guy around here who installing drain covers for basically 1100 dollars on a three drain system. He is an old retired navy diver living on a fixed income. But he is installing the drain covers without insurance and low balling his prices. Inexperience and unknowingness makes him low ball prices. That same job he does, for a licensed, insured pool professional could range from 7 thousand to 20 thousand. Depending on drain cover and if any other underwater work had to be performed to make the drain safe. He just goes out and get the cover on. Thats what they are looking for. DONT BE A PATSY.

 

[Cave Diver]

I have installed one cover and it went fine with no problems. But once I am paid for that job, I'm backing out of the deal. There is too much liability and not enough profit for me to continue.

Sounds like a good decision. It's good to see that you're interested in doing the right thing and not letting the idea of some quick money cloud your judgement.

 

[rstofer]

I find that a little hard to believe. Can you back that up with a link or other documentation?

It's true...

What is Illegal Activity - Contractors State License Board

http://www.cslb.ca.gov/Journeymen/JourneymenUnlicensedConsequences.asp

Richard