Why a snorkel?

[rstofer]

So, all of you would simply let the victim die while waiting on the CG (who might be busy elsewhere) or the other divers to resurface. Remember, some divers may have doubles and be a very long way from the boat. They might not even hear the recall. Even if they do, it might be a very long swim to the boat. So, how long do you wait for the divers to surface? Twemty minutes, forty, an hour?

It is far faster for the dive boat to make a run to shore than it is for the CG to make a round trip. Even if they agree to meet in the middle, the divers are still left behind. And there aren't all that many helos around.

Apparently the float is quite large - it has 30 handles for the divers to grab. Maybe the hang time is 40 minutes to an hour. Probably not much more than that although the dive site might be an hour from the point of departure. The nearest shore facility might be a lot closer than the point of departure. According to the briefing, the boat has made emergency runs in the past and some divers didn't even know they had been gone.

Yes, it's a complex decision and it merits a lot of thought. How do you weigh the life of someone who will probably die against the possible danger to twenty other divers hanging on a float? Beats me...

In the end, somebody has to make a decision. That would be the Captain.

Richard

 

[J.R.]

In the end, somebody has to make a decision. That would be the Captain.

Negative... that would be me... for me. If the Captain annouces his emergency proceedure and I disagree with it I abort the dive before it starts... or at least start looking for an emergency craft that I would expect to be deployed in the event a 'run to shore in an attempt save a life' occurs... failing to find such a vessel would necessitate my falling back to "Plan A" and stay feet dry on the vessel...

 

[Slonda828]

Negative... that would be me... for me. If the Captain annouces his emergency proceedure and I disagree with it I abort the dive before it starts... or at least start looking for an emergency craft that I would expect to be deployed in the event a 'run to shore in an attempt save a life' occurs... failing to find such a vessel would necessitate my falling back to "Plan A" and stay feet dry on the vessel...

I couldn't agree more. I feel like I am responsible for my own well being. If I'm not doing stuff with students, then I'm only responsible for myself. That means I can tell the charter boat Captain that I am disinclined to acquiesce to his request and bingo back to the beach. I'm not risking my life if I don't feel like it, and why should he, conversely, have a diver on his boat who will not comply with his procedures? I think your scenario is win/win.

 

[String]

It is far faster for the dive boat to make a run to shore than it is for the CG to make a round trip. Even if they agree to meet in the middle, the divers are still left behind. And there aren't all that many helos around.

I didn't realise boats could outrun helicopters. Where do i buy such a boat?
Leaving divers offshore is negligent. There is a duty of care to EVERYONE and simply leaving the scene where you could have 3,4,5+ other incidents AND have the prospect of divers drifting and going missing in my view is near criminally negligent.

You radio the coastguard, they scramble a boat or a helicopter. If needed they arrange for other boats in the area to either cover the divers or evacuate a casualty. Under no procedure what so ever will ANYONE ever recommend abandoning divers out in the ocean. You just turned a 1 person incident into a 15 person incident.

In the end, somebody has to make a decision. That would be the Captain.

Richard

No actually, the decision should be made by the search and rescue authorities and not some maverick captain who knows nothing at all about it.

(this also still has absolutely nothing to do with a snorkel).

 

[rstofer]

I didn't realise boats could outrun helicopters.

What if the helo is busy elsewhere? It's not like they have a fleet of them sitting around waiting for a call. I suspect the captain would have evaluated that alternative before heading in. Heck, he might have been advised to make the run! At some point, really big decisions need to be made. At least this possibility was discussed.

If I was the one laying on the deck, I would prefer the boat get moving. I imagine most people would. It's just too easy to say "Well, I want them to wait for me to finish my 2 tank dive, however long that might take! So what if the other guy bleeds out!".

If I have to hang on a buoy, wearing my snorkel, so what? It's not like I didn't volunteer to jump in the water. If I was really concerned, I could swim for the beach; it is seldom a mile away. Of course, not every beach has a nice exit.

Or, take a different boat if you think the procedures are different. But you better check before you book the trip. I think I would prefer to be on the boat where the captain has thought through the possibilities, has a 'hail Mary' plan and describes it to the customers.

Richard

 

[LeadTurn_SD]

So, all of you would simply let the victim die while waiting on the CG (who might be busy elsewhere) or the other divers to resurface. Remember, some divers may have doubles and be a very long way from the boat. They might not even hear the recall. Even if they do, it might be a very long swim to the boat. So, how long do you wait for the divers to surface? Twemty minutes, forty, an hour?

It is far faster for the dive boat to make a run to shore than it is for the CG to make a round trip. Even if they agree to meet in the middle, the divers are still left behind. And there aren't all that many helos around.

Apparently the float is quite large - it has 30 handles for the divers to grab. Maybe the hang time is 40 minutes to an hour. Probably not much more than that although the dive site might be an hour from the point of departure. The nearest shore facility might be a lot closer than the point of departure. According to the briefing, the boat has made emergency runs in the past and some divers didn't even know they had been gone.

Yes, it's a complex decision and it merits a lot of thought. How do you weigh the life of someone who will probably die against the possible danger to twenty other divers hanging on a float? Beats me...

In the end, somebody has to make a decision. That would be the Captain.

Richard

I would wait until all divers were aboard, based on the highlighted statement in your quote above. Even if it resulted in the death of the injured diver.

I know this sounds terribly harsh, but here is why:

This is a classic "triage" situation. The injured diver is in serious enough condition that he/she cannot be stabilized by the boat crew and going to die if he/she does not receive immediate attention, AND the only way to get that attention is to make a one hour boat ride back to shore.... sadly, that diver is already dead. Recall the divers in the water and get underway ASAP.

If the diver will live beyond the next hour (has been stabilized by the boat crew), then they will probably remain stable long enough to get the other divers out of the water. Recall the divers in the water and get underway ASAP.

An hour away from the dock is a very LONG way in a true life & death emergency. If there is no Coast Guard helo available, the injured diver is not going to make it. Trying to transport the injured diver in the dive boat means probably up to a 2 hour abandonment of the divers left in the water, assuming the original injured diver can be INSTANTLY transferred to EMS at the dock.

If any of the divers in the water has a problem, they have they will wait for 2 hours + for THEIR chance at help.

Does that mean that you have a potential fatality of the injured diver??? Yes. You'll have to explain to the family why you could not abandon the other divers. It would be a horrible decision to have to make. But leaving other divers in the water under the circumstances you describe risks multiple casualties.

 

[Slonda828]

Since we are actually debating (albeit poorly) whether or not a snorkel should be used, I would like to point everyone to the Divers Alert Network article listed here:

DAN Divers Alert Network : DAN’s Diving Tips for the New Diver

Also, I would like to mention the NOAA Diving Manual, available for view here:

The Noaa Diving Manual: Diving for ... - Google Book Search

Also, I would like to mention this peer reviewed journal article:

Elsevier: Article Locator

All three of these articles advocate carrying a snorkel while diving. I am not going to opine either way, but how many people have any factual information supporting why not to carry a snorkel. Something peer reviewed, from DAN, or from NOAA would be great. A documented case of a snagged snorkel killing a diver, or maybe of a snorkel somehow causing death or serious bodily harm.

I see two sides to this issue. NOAA, DAN, PADI, NAUI, several graduates of Lee Somers's course (of varying degrees of fame), numerous other organizations and some peer reviewed articles advise people to include a snorkel in their kit as a tool for surface swimming and rescue, then we have people, who based upon their opinion only, tell others not to use them. Hm....

 

[String]

What if the helo is busy elsewhere? It's not like they have a fleet of them sitting around waiting for a call.

They often have more than one. They also have boats. They also have the ability to summon help from other boats in the area.

I suspect the captain would have evaluated that alternative before heading in. Heck, he might have been advised to make the run!

There is no chance in hell ANY sar organisation is going to recommend leaving divers to fend for themselves in the ocean with no boat cover thus creating potentially many more casualties and a far greater SAR. No chance. Never.

If I was the one laying on the deck, I would prefer the boat get moving. I imagine most people would.

No responsible skipper would ever do that.

It's just too easy to say "Well, I want them to wait for me to finish my 2 tank dive, however long that might take! So what if the other guy bleeds out!".

Complete rubbish. However if there are divers down and they cannot be recalled you have no choice - you either stay with the divers and let help come to you or you arrange for other boats to provide surface cover.

If I have to hang on a buoy, wearing my snorkel, so what?

Nice idea. Assuming you get back to the buoy, or there are no currents or the sea state is smooth. If you have luck on your side it might just work. If you dont then you could be spending a very very long time drifting at sea. Or a very long time with a bend that cant be treated as your surface cover has vanished and left you.

It's not like I didn't volunteer to jump in the water. If I was really concerned, I could swim for the beach; it is seldom a mile away. Of course, not every beach has a nice exit.

Again cute idea if you dive somewhere that doesnt have currents and you know for certain you aren't going to have any form of diving incident that may require help.

Or, take a different boat if you think the procedures are different.

Thats an option IF the highly dangerous and one-off procedure is explained BEFORE you actually get on the thing. If you've already booked, get onboard and only THEN find out the captain is a certifiable lunatic who has no sense of responsibility at all you've just wasted money and a day.

 

[String]

DAN Divers Alert Network : DANÃÔ Diving Tips for the New Diver[/url]

Nowhere does it say you should wear a snorkel whilst diving. Nowhere does it say it provides any safety.

The only passage that mentions the thing in there just says "learn to like it with just mask, fins and snorkelling as it'll make you more confident as a diver". It doesnt even link it to diving.

As for the others there are peer reviewed articles out there (many of them) showing that in water resus is far better with a pocket mask or direct mouth to nose (or mouth to mouth). The seals are better, the breaths are more efficient.
You are also ignoring the fact that most people have self drain snorkels which (i) have grooved tops to prevent water ingress and (ii) have 1 way valves the other end BOTH of which will prevent it being any use at all for in-water AV.

Oh, not even PADI recommend it as you state.

So, you've posted 3 articles none of which make any of the recommendations you claim and are unrelated to the topic. Well done!

 

[Slonda828]

String, your arguments are baseless. Why don't you find something to back up that opinion of yours? Show the board where it says in anything official that a snorkel is useless. That is your position, so defend it with something other than your opinion.

While the articles I have linked to do not say that a snorkel makes you safer, they all advocate having a snorkel to use, hence they advocate the use of a snorkel while diving. If I tell you that a peer reviewed article advocates the use of underwear, than one can be resonably sure that the implication is that you wear underwear. If an article advocates using a snorkel in a surface emergency, or the skills of watermanship that are enhanced by using a snorkel, then one could infer that you would have to have one with you to do that.

I'll agree, many peer reviewed articles tout the efficacy of the pocket mask. That wasn't what we were talking about though, was it? We were talking about snorkels, and why or why not to carry one, and trying to pass that information on to new divers. Where's your evidence? Tell me why I shouldn't carry one. Oh, and feel free to back that opinion up.