Why CCR?

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In the wake of three deaths in one week I have a question for you guys who pilot them and those interested in them.

1 Why assume this risk when you are not a pro?
The same question could be asked of any of us. Breathing underwater is risky, so why learn to SCUBA dive? Cave diving is risky, so why learn to cave dive? CCR is a tool, just like stage bottles, DPV's or any other number of ways to dive. Any of them contain risks, and complacency increases those risks.

There wasn't just one reason why my buddy and I decided to go CCR, but a mainly for a variety of reasons. It should be a personal choice. For us, it was a decision that was weighed for almost two years.

2. What advantages do they have?
Extended dive time, accelerated deco, additional comfort through breathing warm, moist air and more resources to work through problems are just a few advantages. Lack of bubbles allows you to get closer to aquatic life and no perculation in OE's are a couple more.

I know several excellent CCR divers, and the ones I have asked all say the same thing. If you get complacent on CCR like you can on OC you will probably die. I know a lot of people think so much more bottom time with less gear. This is false, you better have the OC gear and gas to get you back to the surface if something goes wrong. I dont see that as an advantage nor do you save money on expensive tri-mix cause you still need enough to save yourself.
Your thinking is flawed because it's one dimensional. I'm not meaning that to be derogatory, but you're trying to apply OC gas management to a scenario you don't understand.

I'll give an example. Doing a non-overhead dive to 100' for 45 minutes on OC using 32%. V-planner shows this dive for me on OC to require 120+ cft of gas and 15 minutes of deco. How much bailout do you think I'd need to carry to do this dive on CCR?

If I had a total loop failure at max depth/time, I'd need 24 cft of gas to get me back to the surface from depth and complete the necessary deco. So a 40cft bottle would be plenty of gas for this scenario because I don't need the gas to do the dive, I just need an adequate amount to get me back to the surface, and cover my deco + any emergency. The same concept applies in an OE.

That's a simple example and when it gets into OE scenarios it gets a bit more complicated, but hopefully it illustrated the point. Furthermore, the O2 and diluent tanks on my CCR are good for about 5+ hours of diving and cost me $5 to fill. If I don't use bailout, I never have to fill it. My average OC gas bill for a long weekend cave diving on OC nitrox was ~$100-120. Cost of consumables (dil, O2 and 'sorb) for my last CCR trip was about $35 and I logged about 1.5 times more bottom time. Diving trimix, the OC gas cost would run us ~$120-150 per dive.

I know there are several places to dive where if your not sidemount then you are not going, this I see as a disadvantage. The only true advantage I see is taking pics or video where your exhaust could scare away your subject. Is that really worth the risk if you are not making money as a pro? I would love to see some good answers here and look forward to them.

I can't answer this as I don't push sidemount passages on OC either. Although I do know that there are people that have ways of sidemounting a CCR setup. The advantage in CCR's come from doing deeper dives. The deeper you go, the more efficient they become. Yes, deeper dives require more bailout, but it's not as great as people often make it out to be. As I mentioned earlier, another big plus to CCR is that you wont have perculation disturbing silt on the ceilings in wrecks or low flow caves.

Well actually you do have the cost if you dive it correct. You have to have enough OC gear and gas to get you from depth to surface in the event of a failure.. In some caves that could be a lot of gas.. Thats why I am asking this,

It doesnt require carrying as much bailout as you probably think it does and unless you actually have to bailout, that gas is not being used, so it's not a recurring cost.

Sure does!

A RB is a tool, and depending on your needs which unit you require will change. I personally would never touch a electronic unit, diving a Manual unit requires you to watch everything.. regularly!

Not that i dive any unit, it also requires a crap load of maturity... lol

Just because a unit has electronics doesnt mean you can't still monitor it or fly it manually. I do this with my Meg. The electronics are a backup in case my attention lapses.

MIke and Howard. I know you can hook your bail out gas to the CCR.. That would limit the amount you need to take. I dont understand why you would do that tho.. If there was a reason to go the the BO gas, seems to me that there is a problem with the unit or existing gas pressures ( too high PP02's, ect ) are bad. Looks safer to go to OC at that point or are you remixing if the gas supply is bad?

I'm not really following what you're asking here, but I'll attempt to answer what I think you're saying.

There are different reasons for bailing out and the reason can dictate your actions. Your bailout should be like OC rock bottom calculations. You carry sufficient bailout to get you to the surface under less than ideal conditions while completing all necessary deco etc from your max depth/time of the dive.

Bailout typically means the dive is over. There may be exceptions that allow you to go back on the loop though. Example, PO2 reading is way off. You notice it and immediately bail out. You KNOW it shouldnt be, and you suspect the O2 sensors may have moisture on them. So you flush the loop with dil, which puts a known gas into the loop and dries the sensors. After re-evaluating you decide to go back on the loop and monitor the situation for further problems.
 
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Just because a unit has electronics doesnt mean you can't still monitor it or fly it manually. I do this with my Meg. The electronics are a backup in case my attention lapses.


CD not saying you can't i know many do and the Meg is a really nice unit. Just made the comment like that as the MCCR you have no choice.

Like everything a diver has to weight the pros and cons of any paticular unit to the type of diving they are doing. YOu can go CCR anywhere from 3 grand to 30 grand. A simple MCCR with simple PO2 displays or fully electronic duel plumbed in computer system unit.

Bailout has been a question that comes up alot, and honesty with the way things are going today, those divers who are on RB's and are doing those massive pushes or dives are now starting to carry Bailout Rebreathers as well.
 
The same question could be asked of any of us. Breathing underwater is risky, so why learn to SCUBA dive? Cave diving is risky, so why learn to cave dive? CCR is a tool, just like stage bottles, DPV's or any other number of ways to dive. Any of them contain risks, and complacency increases those risks.

There wasn't just one reason why my buddy and I decided to go CCR, but a mainly for a variety of reasons. It should be a personal choice. For us, it was a decision that was weighed for almost two years.


Extended dive time, accelerated deco, additional comfort through breathing warm, moist air and more resources to work through problems are just a few advantages. Lack of bubbles allows you to get closer to aquatic life and no perculation in OE's are a couple more.


Your thinking is flawed because it's one dimensional. I'm not meaning that to be derogatory, but you're trying to apply OC gas management to a scenario you don't understand.

I'll give an example. Doing a non-overhead dive to 100' for 45 minutes on OC using 32%. V-planner shows this dive for me on OC to require 120+ cft of gas and 15 minutes of deco. How much bailout do you think I'd need to carry to do this dive on CCR?

If I had a total loop failure at max depth/time, I'd need 24 cft of gas to get me back to the surface from depth and complete the necessary deco. So a 40cft bottle would be plenty of gas for this scenario because I don't need the gas to do the dive, I just need an adequate amount to get me back to the surface, and cover my deco + any emergency. The same concept applies in an OE.

That's a simple example and when it gets into OE scenarios it gets a bit more complicated, but hopefully it illustrated the point. Furthermore, the O2 and diluent tanks on my CCR are good for about 5+ hours of diving and cost me $5 to fill. If I don't use bailout, I never have to fill it. My average OC gas bill for a long weekend cave diving on OC nitrox was ~$100-120. Cost of consumables (dil, O2 and 'sorb) for my last CCR trip was about $35 and I logged about 1.5 times more bottom time. Diving trimix, the OC gas cost would run us ~$120-150 per dive.



I can't answer this as I don't push sidemount passages on OC either. Although I do know that there are people that have ways of sidemounting a CCR setup. The advantage in CCR's come from doing deeper dives. The deeper you go, the more efficient they become. Yes, deeper dives require more bailout, but it's not as great as people often make it out to be. As I mentioned earlier, another big plus to CCR is that you wont have perculation disturbing silt on the ceilings in wrecks or low flow caves.



It doesnt require carrying as much bailout as you probably think it does and unless you actually have to bailout, that gas is not being used, so it's not a recurring cost.



Just because a unit has electronics doesnt mean you can't still monitor it or fly it manually. I do this with my Meg. The electronics are a backup in case my attention lapses.



I'm not really following what you're asking here, but I'll attempt to answer what I think you're saying.

There are different reasons for bailing out and the reason can dictate your actions. Your bailout should be like OC rock bottom calculations. You carry sufficient bailout to get you to the surface under less than ideal conditions while completing all necessary deco etc from your max depth/time of the dive.

Bailout typically means the dive is over. There may be exceptions that allow you to go back on the loop though. Example, PO2 reading is way off. You notice it and immediately bail out. You KNOW it shouldnt be, and you suspect the O2 sensors may have moisture on them. So you flush the loop with dil, which puts a known gas into the loop and dries the sensors. After re-evaluating you decide to go back on the loop and monitor the situation for further problems.


Nothing taken derogatory.. Just trying to undertand things I dont. I have told you, Brock and Stanton those things scare me. Probably more of the unknown than anything. I like the concept of warm moist air. That must be great.

One point here. You mentioned the electronics you use as a backup in case your attention span wonders off. Just how much of a gap in your attention span can hurt? I make fun of myself on cave dives cause my light goes everywhere. I take it all in. But I do manage to keep my gas under supervision, I check it every 2 to 3 minutes. Is that too big of a gap for CCR?

I thank everyone so far for the answers.
 
I check it every 2 to 3 minutes. Is that too big of a gap for CCR?

I thank everyone so far for the answers.

I try to check my handset every 1-2 minutes. Depending on your depth... The rate at which the O2 level in your loop drops is minimal, and it would take several minutes for your PO2 to drop to an unsafe level. That said however... If you let your PO2 drop, there are other ramifications, especially when you get into deco situations, and your optimized gas mixtures, and your dive plan.

I've noticed that since I started diving CCR, than when I dive OC, I look at my computer a lot more frequently now than when I was just diving OC.
 
I try to check my handset every 1-2 minutes. Depending on your depth... The rate at which the O2 level in your loop drops is minimal, and it would take several minutes for your PO2 to drop to an unsafe level. That said however... If you let your PO2 drop, there are other ramifications, especially when you get into deco situations, and your optimized gas mixtures, and your dive plan.

I've noticed that since I started diving CCR, than when I dive OC, I look at my computer a lot more frequently now than when I was just diving OC.

Thats what I was thinking. I really believe CCR can be safe. But I think it takes a special mindset to do it properly. I think we might see too many that are getting in trouble because they passed the training and then they get LAX.. It is easy to forget in my opinion that just because you have the training you still have to learn and train on each dive. Thats wether OC or CCR.
 
Kevin,

Really... think about what I posted yesterday. Who is getting into CCR diving. What is their mindset? I won't say MANY, but several of the people I've seen getting into CCR are looking for the deeper, longer, less deco. Do you honestly think that some of these people won't be reckless in their race to get deeper and dive longer?

Give a full trimix guy a CCR. "Here's a tool that you can use to go deep; very deep (look in this month's Advanced Diver Magazine where there's more than 1 dive to deeper than 500' written up), BUT; you're a new diver on this thing... so keep your depth to less than 140 feet, and ONLY use AIR Diluent right now; because you're not certified for trimix in your rebreather yet."
 
Kevin,

Really... think about what I posted yesterday. Who is getting into CCR diving. What is their mindset? I won't say MANY, but several of the people I've seen getting into CCR are looking for the deeper, longer, less deco. Do you honestly think that some of these people won't be reckless in their race to get deeper and dive longer?

Give a full trimix guy a CCR. "Here's a tool that you can use to go deep; very deep (look in this month's Advanced Diver Magazine where there's more than 1 dive to deeper than 500' written up), BUT; you're a new diver on this thing... so keep your depth to less than 140 feet, and ONLY use AIR Diluent right now; because you're not certified for trimix in your rebreather yet."


Thats why I fault the diver and not the unit in probably 97% of the accidents if not more. Hopefully my questions will help others decide on if CCR is for them or not. Unbiased views like yours Howard are really appreciated. CD and Mike yours too.
And I did not get the beating I thought I might get after I posted this thread. :D
 
I know several divers CCR divers who while they love there machines tend to do there more serious dives still on Open circuit. I think one of the problems many have is the whole mixed team diving.

Such as my regular buddy and I he dives a Kiss Classic and I dive OC. Any diving we do he clears out on deco faster than i do, yet he is still required to hang out with me while i complete my deco obligations. Also I am a DIR practitioner at some points so he is carrying his required bailout plus whatever is required for myself.

Many will say that when a RB diver is in the water with a OC diver essentially its two solo divers diving together, this can be true but does not have to be the way.

I do agree that there are many people making the move to RB's not because they need them but because its the Ultimate ego stroke for them. I have learned not to judge ones Skill/Experience level based on their choice of gear. I have sat there and listened to a RB diver talk about his dives, dive experience and how much this "Hobby" has cost him... Yet get in the water and find him hanging feet first wrapped around the mooring line doing his deco.

To dive CCR i believe you have to have a serious mind set, Maturity level and be very meticulous.
 
Howard - I understand what you are saying - is it not like a youngster who buys more car than s/he can handle? They push the CCR further than their skills can handle.

So -- please consider the ignorant source (me) - a CCR is for those who wish to go places regularly that are outside the 'normal' dive limits: a wreck below 130, or caves - just not skinny ones. And the real issue is that since one is pushing way out there, they need a lot to bail themselves out - - which almost negates the benefits . . .

:confused:
When I dive CCR, I am not alway pushing the limits. When I am, sometimes my Bail-Out is a second rebreather.

Sometimes, I dive a RB because I just don't want to carry a bunch of heavy gear. One of my RBs has two 6CF tanks and weighs half as much as an AL80. I use it a lot for relaxing beach dives.
 
Sometimes, I dive a RB because I just don't want to carry a bunch of heavy gear. One of my RBs has two 6CF tanks and weighs half as much as an AL80. I use it a lot for relaxing beach dives.


This is one of the reason i have seriously look into them.

one of our beach entries are rather tough, the town has put up a rock breakwall around the edge of the lake to prevent erosion in doing so its make it rather challenging to get in and out. Now while my buddy and i are getting in he will have his RB unit on total weight of about 60ish pounds, where i am getting in with my Double PST130's and stage.. Some 200 pounds.

Not to mention the amount of drag i have in the water compared to the RB diver i am working twice as hard to plow through the water.
 
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