Why do we bash each other?

[The Chairman]

Again, stating such a belief is not in itself an attack. Of course, like the incessant "BP&Wings" solution to every thread about BCs, it can become incredibly tiresome. Unfortunately, we don't have a way to measure stalking of a premise. We can see it when it comes to someone stalking a person, but it's far harder to discern when it comes to ideas and ideologies.

That being said, it's quite obvious to a lot of people here that a few members have an agenda against PADI and sometimes other agencies. Unfortunately (x2), they just can't or won't see this as a negative and feel compelled to keep spreading their venom. Fortunately, it's not nearly as bad as it was two, three or even five years ago. They have toned down the rhetoric quite a bit, and for that I thank them. If you are really getting upset with them, simply use our ignore feature. If the perp is a staff member or a forum host, you will need the help of a senior Moderator or Advisor. However, threads like this are GREAT and even cathartic for those of us tired of the constant negativity.

As for the "IMHO", perhaps their lack of humility prevents them from using that? It certainly would not hurt them to use such a caveat, but it appears to me though, that they often perceive their opinion to be as valid as fact. At least their tenacity would indicate such.

 

[paddler3d]

Because people post some dumb stuff out there...

let's be real... the only reason you would need a computer is if you're planning your own dives, going and doing your own thing... you have few dives, and the divemasters on the boats will be watching you very closely. there is absolutely no need to wear a computer on a guided trip, because there will ALWAYS be someone who chugs air faster than you do, rendering your computer's features basically useless.

thus, i would buy a reg setup, like everything you need, and then a nice reg bag to carry on the airlines. done deal.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Personally, I could never teach a Scuba Class in the slow, pedantic methodology utilized by Walter and others here on ScubaBoard. What they see as "thorough", I avoid as being antiquated and boring. My class is far more focused at a much quicker pace with efficiency both in my instruction as well as in their diving as the unifying mantra. In my mind, I produce a better diver and someone who has learned how to learn on their own.

To use this as an example, Pete ... your methods work better for you, and in the environment in which you teach. They may not work so well for someone else, or in a different environment. Instructors sometimes use the term "efficiency" to mean "cut corners" ... and although in their own opinion they are producing good divers, the results often imply otherwise. I'm not suggesting that's the situation in your case, but I have seen the same arguments used here with less than stellar results.

As always, it boils down the individuals ... instructors and students ... as to how well the teaching approach suits the desired result of a well-educated diver.

That said ... and just tossing something back your way that you directed to me earlier ... don't you see words such as "pedantic", "antiquated" and "boring" to be a bit perjorative when used in reference to how another instructor chooses to teach? Their approach may not be the one you choose, but it's entirely possible to teach a more in-depth class without it being any of those things.

Again, stating such a belief is not in itself an attack. Of course, like the incessant "BP&Wings" solution to every thread about BCs, it can become incredibly tiresome. Unfortunately, we don't have a way to measure stalking of a premise. We can see it when it comes to someone stalking a person, but it's far harder to discern when it comes to ideas and ideologies.

I think most people believe that the best gear on the market is the one they chose. And while I agree the repetition can get tiresome, please keep in mind that people tend to come and go on ScubaBoard, and most folks haven't been around as long as you and I have to see the cycles repeat themselves.

It would be helpful if everyone would remember that ALL gear comes with advantages and drawbacks ... and there is no universal solution that works best for everyone in every circumstance. But it's a bit idealistic to believe that people will choose to look at the trade-offs they made when they chose their own gear and consider that not everyone sees the same advantages as they did when they make their gear choices.

That's why a healthy debate on the subject can be so valuable ... not to mention that there will be choices a year from now that simply aren't available as we type this conversation into the ScubaBoard record.

That being said, it's quite obvious to a lot of people here that a few members have an agenda against PADI and sometimes other agencies. Unfortunately (x2), they just can't or won't see this as a negative and feel compelled to keep spreading their venom. Fortunately, it's not nearly as bad as it was two, three or even five years ago. They have toned down the rhetoric quite a bit, and for that I thank them.

I agree with you that it's better than it once was.

Quite a few of the worst perps no longer post on ScubaBoard ... for which I thank them. There are other boards out there that welcome the level of discussion they prefer to engage in ... and they'll be happier on those boards ... as the rest of us are happier that they are no longer here.

I see it as a win-win situation ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[scubamountaingirl]

I think its is because most people dont know each other as real people. I doubt that most of the bashing and name calling and put downs would happen in a face to face discussion. Its the bad nature of the beast , letting the worst side of you show on a forum when no one who really knows you would ever see it to call you out on your bad behavior...

having said that scuba board is civil compared to TDS. But also way more confronting than some other forums I participate in. Some forums have NO name calling allowed if the confrontation, is not productive, or about scuba or becomes at all personal, that post is deleted. period. no bashing , no trolling no bad manners are allowed. period. It is much nicer and gets more information across without having to scroll through two or three people's endless arguments to get back to the OP's topic.

on another note. I had someone from this board, take something i put on my facebook page and repost it here out of context, without my knowledge and it was IMHO out of line. The post was not understood by the thief nor was I consulted as a real person as to what I meant. So another example of posts not being treated as if there are "real" people behind the words.

Scubaboard has mods in place but sometimes, it is my opinion, sometimes they dont step in soon enough. But you can always choose not to read a post. just close it. To each their own...no?

 

[GeorgeC]

..........Scubaboard has mods in place but sometimes, it is my opinion, sometimes they dont step in soon enough. But you can always choose not to read a post. just close it. To each their own...no?

Moutaingirl good post!
Let’s face it the board moderators can’t be everywhere all the time. Consider self policing. If we see something getting out of control voice the opinion that this behavior is not necessary or pertinent to a productive post. If post bashers keep hearing this same vibe they may back off. On the flip side I DO want disagreements that are productive. Nothing like agreeing to disagree!

 

[The Chairman]

don't you see words such as "pedantic", "antiquated" and "boring" to be a bit perjorative when used in reference to how another instructor chooses to teach?

Gee Bob, I thought that I was being diplomatic! Instead of pedantic (overly concerned with minute details or formalisms, esp. in teaching.) I could have used anal. Instead of antiquated (continued from, resembling, or adhering to the past), I could have used obsolete. Instead of boring (to weary by dullness, tedious repetition, unwelcome attentions, etc.) I could have said arid, bomb, bromidic, bummer, characterless, cloying, colorless, commonplace, dead, drab, drag, drudging, dull, flat, ho hum, humdrum, insipid, interminable, irksome, lifeless, monotonous, moth-eaten, mundane, nothing, nowhere, platitudinous, plebeian, prosaic, repetitious, routine, spiritless, stale, stereotyped, stodgy, stuffy, stupid, tame, tedious, threadbare, tiresome, tiring, trite, unexciting, uninteresting, unvaried, vapid, wearisome, well-worn or zero. (You have to love online thesauruses)

Obviously, we don't have to be sickeningly positive when we express our opinions. If I were to go to every post by Walter (or anyone) and indicate that I thought they were slow and pedantic in their teaching methodology, then it would be considered stalking. When people do this to concepts, topics and ideologies, we call it trolling. Somewhere in between these extremes and merely expressing your opinion, we get obsessive behaviors. While not specifically addressed by the ToS, these obsessions are obvious to anyone who reads any significant amount here and quite often they are resented for their apparent agenda(s). One has to wonder, if they are posting to convince others or to convince themselves?

It's like my cat. She simply loves my son and loves to cuddle next to him. They are cute! However, he can't stand her meowing: it drives him up the wall. So, he closes his door to avoid the unpleasantness of her caterwauling. In her quest for attention, she has been ostracized. Poor kitteh! The same happens here and quite often peeps get put on ignore for their incessant whining.

 

[The Chairman]

Scubaboard has mods in place but sometimes, it is my opinion, sometimes they dont step in soon enough. But you can always choose not to read a post. just close it. To each their own...no?

Let me introduce you to our best friend... the

button!

Mods can't be everywhere, so we have YOU. In fact, quite often mods won't react unless you report a post. We don't want to be guilty of over-moderating, so we let our users draw the lines for us. If you don't report it, quite often we will let it pass since it did not seem to offend anyone but us. Unlike most forums, the user is in control here. We do things for our users when they ask us for them. No, we can't accommodate every request, but we try to do as much as possible.
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[Walter]

Sure it does. Look how on-topic we have remained in this thread. There has even been sharp disagreement, and yet there have been no unsubstantiated accusations and no real outbursts of anger. It's been a great thread.

I agree, but that's not what Otter said. He said posters should go back to the original post and stick to the original issue or the OP's original question. That's much more restrictive than merely staying on topic. We can stay on topic within a conversation that flows and changes from issue to issue within the original topic, just like we've done in this thread.

Seems to me that a great deal of the perceived "bashing" could be avoided by posters if they simply go back to the original post on each thread, and try to stick to the original issue, or the OP's original question.

That's not what otterdive is referring to. Take the ever present issue of BP&Wings. Do they have to be the logical conclusion to EVERY thread about BCDs? Does everyone who uses a back inflate (or other) BC do so ONLY because they have yet to try a BP&Wing? That is essentially what many erroneously suggest.

Perhaps not, but after rereading his post, it still looks like it to me.

It mostly depends on how you express that "value". Calling something a piece of s***, while it may indeed be your opinion, is inflammatory no matter how you may want to couch it.

No arguments with that. I was in no way suggesting that type of post is acceptable.

Personally, I could never teach a Scuba Class in the slow, pedantic methodology utilized by Walter and others here on ScubaBoard.

I feel like I've just been bashed, especially since I don't teach using a pedantic methodology. My methods are not antiquated nor are they boring. I'm sure you didn't intend to bash, but it does come across that way.

The thread title was/is "Zero to Hero - Top Schools?" In New Divers / Considering Diving. That was his entire post; no creative quoting.

Yes, that was my entire post on the topic. The person was asking about finding a zero to hero program. Had that been all they were asking about, I would not have responded. They were also looking for a good school at which they could undertake such a program. Since, in my opinion, no good school would ever offer such a program and since this person was in search of a good school, I pointed out that their desires are in conflict. Pointing that out did not require a lengthy post. As for using "IMHO," it is unnecessary because all values are opinion. The thread is asking for opinions. When asked for an opinion, it is unnecessary to express that the answer is an opinion. Also, once upon a time I used IMHO with some regularity. The responses I received for using it were extremely rude. I was the 4th person to respond in that thread. You were the only one of the three to respond before me who did not offer an opinion (but then you didn't answer the OP's question), neither of the other posters stated they were responding with an opinion. Why is my post singled out for not using IMHO?

Unfortunately, we don't have a way to measure stalking of a premise.

Certain topics interest certain people, other topics do not. I don't see this as a bad thing. People who are interested in a topic respond, those who are not interested do not.

 

[TheSmoothDome]

As an English major with a creative writiing emphasis in college, I do know how tone can be controlled through the written word. It does seem that many internet posters believe that they do not have to be congnizant of their tone though and unfortunately, when major contributors to a forum have trouble controlling the tone of their posts it does deter others from speaking up.

I'll provide two examples here with the codicile that I'm saying this to facillitate discussion rather than attacking or bashing folks.

This thread started because of the way halemano perceived Walter's initial response to the Zero to Hero thread. Walter stated simply that he believed that the best schools do not have zero to hero programs. The tone however was condecending and dismissive. First, it was stated as fact, not couched with I believe or I feel. Second, without providing explanation as to why you believe it to be such, the statement becomes dismissive. You're basically telling the OP that their question isn't worthy of a well thought out response. I highly doubt you meant that when you posted, but this is what came across.

The second example I'd like to share is NWGratefulDivers response to my issue about his statement about folks having limited perspective. He responded "Just curious if you read the rest of what I wrote ... and if so, does the context have anything to do with the meaning of the one sentence you decided to take issue with?"

Are you really questioning if I bothered to read your well thought out arguments or are you trying to insinuate that I'm taking things out of context? Yes, I obviously read your entire post. I had numerous issues with it, but rather than turning it into a critical analysis, I decided to focus on what you suggested was your conclusion, which you began with "So I guess my point is...". Bob, you made your point, summed it up and I responded with what I hoped would be a well thought out response. What I got back was a defensive response claiming that I took one sentence out of context and that I turned it into what I wanted it to say. Again, we go back to tone. I took your conclusion and responded to it, yet I'm twisting what you said? The tone comes across as defensive and, by questioning if I spent time considering what you said, condescending.

Again, I point these items out for discussion purposes. I hope it leads to something productive.

 

[The Chairman]

I feel like I've just been bashed, especially since I don't teach using a pedantic methodology.

:homealone: Wow! When did you change over to my way of teaching?
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Sorry, Walter: I simply couldn't resist! My apologies, but you can start to see how YOUR attitudes often come across in just that bit of post. All I did was to change from being kindly honest to just honest, and now you feel bashed. I didn't even get to brutal and I didn't cross the ToS!

Saying that "zero to hero" and a "top school" are impossible to combine WITHOUT explanation is nothing but inflammatory and a troll. Was it bashing? Not directly, but you stated it as factually as "You can't pick lemons from an orange tree." Now, you may not want to change your writing style. You might be adamant that your writing style has no need to evolve. Quite a few people disagree with you on that. Something to ponder.