Why do we hate the Air2?

[EastTNDiver]

Would a CCR be a 'poor choice' for a newly qualified OW diver?

Training requirement and equipment complexity have a tangible link. For a new diver... simple kit means simple training.

Given that the average entry-level training course is pretty damned simple... it demands pretty damned simple equipment.

Having to juggle functions with an AIRII is more complex than just passing off a spare AAS. It demands more from the diver.

Seriously...a CCR comparison in an AirII discussion?...give it a rest...you're bordering on OCD at this point.

 

[DevonDiver]

You may not get a choice on what regulator they take from you. I had a panicked diver (that was a total stranger) mug me for my primary regulator.

I think most seasoned divers/pros will have experienced simular events. I would be shocked to hear of an "expert" diver that couldn't deal with scenarios like this. That's why I make a point of differentiating my personal and professional views on this. My personal views are based upon my own competences, likes and dislikes. My professional views are broader in spectrum and deal with the average and lowest common demoninators - i.e. the capacities of the typical and the worst divers I've seen toting OW cards....

I've taught hundred of divers passing the primary and switching to the backup (Air II or Octo) with no added problems or task loading. Law of learning primacy states what is learned first is learned best. If you teach a student pass the primary and then make sure they are proficient (not just doing the skill once and saying you are done with it) then it creates no more difficulty than passing the backup. Repetition and getting a diver comfortable with the skill is the key.

Exactly. No arguements from me on that. I've taught OW in BP&W, bungeed necklace... you name it. The drawback to AIRII exists when it is incorporated by divers who neither train in its use, nor spend any time thinking through personal procedural changes that need to be made. I just believe in acknowledging the negatives... and AIRII does have some negatives.

If this was a thread on longhose/bungeed necklace, then I would want to acknowledge the negatives of that too (although I think there are less than with an AIRII ). But this is an AIRII thread... so AIRII is what I am critiqueing here.

 

[eelnoraa]

I don't think we "hate" air2 system. The real question is why air2. What is the real advantage? One less hose coming out of 1st stage is hardly an advantage by itself. Then what is the trade off. I can think of quite many. So again why?

 

[danvolker]

I think you misunderstood my post. I stated that the issue is with training, or lack thereof, not the equipment...same as with any other piece of gear. If you're trained in a different methodology, should you receive some level of instruction/training when switching? Sure, that's common sense, but that in no way serves to prove the AirII is a poor choice. My rebuttal in this thread was merely targeting those that insist that an AirII is so difficult to use in OOA scenarios. If that were so, my son would definitely be looking for something else, as he is definitely NOT into making things harder...hey...he's a teenager.

I don't think you and I are really dissagreeing on anything. My big point is that with the Air II, or with a long hose and bungeed back up, the new diver needs to be trained on it, and to practice once in a while.

It does not appear as though there has been ANY development of AIR II training or ideas of air share drilling, or even of shops caring/knowing/aware enough to ensure the AIR II purchasers have a long hose for the primary they will now end up donating. And seriously, a minimum wage kid working in a dive shop, thinking about when he is off for his date tonight--just how much thought is he going to give to a new customer buying an Air II ? Given there is no "PUSH" to offer any special advice with it, this gear will be rung up, and out the door, and there will be no discussion or advice given.

If I was the mfg, AIR II, then I would put out a youtube video on optimal configuration ( i.e., how long the primary should be) , how to donate the primary and use of the Air II as backup reg. The video would also promote the idea of periodic air airshare drills, and could even UTILIZE the example of DIR divers as doing this, to point out that it is not due to a gear limitation, but it is a BEST PRACTICE for any divers, and a Good Gear Company Cares about it's divers using BEST PRACTICES........Then, I would try to get every dealer to push this video link, and every dealer to ensure that it goes with every purchase ( certainly they could put the link prominently on the box the AirII comes in).

If this was to happen, it would shut most of us up

 

[EastTNDiver]

I don't think you and I are really dissagreeing on anything. My big point is that with the Air II, or with a long hose and bungeed back up, the new diver needs to be trained on it, and to practice once in a while.

It does not appear as though there has been ANY development of AIR II training or ideas of air share drilling, or even of shops caring/knowing/aware enough to ensure the AIR II purchasers have a long hose for the primary they will now end up donating. And seriously, a minimum wage kid working in a dive shop, thinking about when he is off for his date tonight--just how much thought is he going to give to a new customer buying an Air II ? Given there is no "PUSH" to offer any special advice with it, this gear will be rung up, and out the door, and there will be no discussion or advice given.

If I was the mfg, AIR II, then I would put out a youtube video on optimal configuration ( i.e., how long the primary should be) , how to donate the primary and use of the Air II as backup reg. The video would also promote the idea of periodic air airshare drills, and could even UTILIZE the example of DIR divers as doing this, to point out that it is not due to a gear limitation, but it is a BEST PRACTICE for any divers, and a Good Gear Company Cares about it's divers using BEST PRACTICES........Then, I would try to get every dealer to push this video link, and every dealer to ensure that it goes with every purchase ( certainly they could put the link prominently on the box the AirII comes in).

If this was to happen, it would shut most of us up

I think you are right.

However, I will give a flip side to the rest of your post. IMO, any diver purchasing a piece of gear with which he/she is not familiar, and proceeds to dive it without asking the first question, probably doesn't need to be in the water to begin with. My perspective is that the onus is on the diver to make sure they are informed. This is not to say they should self-train, but that they are responsible for making sure they are prepared, as they can acquire any kind of gear from many sources where a shop or training facility is not involved, such as ebay for example.

 

[DevonDiver]

Seriously...a CCR comparison in an AirII discussion?...give it a rest...you're bordering on OCD at this point.

It was tongue in cheek, to illustrate a concept... but I guess that was lost on you. Nomatter...

We are actually agreeing about many things... like the concept of training vs performance.

I am just factoring-in complexity of operation, on the basis of stress management for novice divers. Training has a bearing on stress management, but does not eliminate it as a factor.

Stress management is a valid issue for any debate concerning emergency equipment. How the equipment encourages or discourages the evolution of diver stress, in critical situations, is perhaps the single biggest factor that should be investigated and understood.

This is the sort of issue I am seeking to highlight:

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/accidents-incidents/342465-panic-attack-after-300-dives.html

Tourist dies in New Caledonia during a "Discovery Scuba" dive [Archive] - ScubaBoard

Near Panic in WPB @ 85FSW [Archive] - ScubaBoard


I don't think it is OCD to object to you 'writing off' certain safety concerns, the root cause of which (panic) results in many real fatalities each year, on the basis of how your child can donate an AAS in a swimming pool.

Trust me... if a learning point was to be made, it would take me about 15 seconds to completely over-load and panic your kid by subjecting them to a realistic real-life rescue scenario, in sub-optimal conditions. Think otherwise and you're kidding yourself.

 

[BennyM]

Another thought just came to mind on this.... How many times do you think a new diver walks in to a shop, buys an AirII, and the shop just sells it to him or just puts it on his rig for him, and that's it....the real point here being, in MANY of these sales, the new diver coming in has a relatively short primary hose....so this is NOT going to be the correct gear match.....What really needs to happen, is the shop will have to say.."How long is your primary hose ? You don know you will have to buy a longer primary hose to use the air II properly, right? "


Meanwhile, the shop owner could be thinking to himself..."I think I can get this guy to shell out the dough for the Air II, and I really need the sale....but he will be tapped out after that....so should I really push him --tell him that he has to pay for a brand new hose as well" ( most customers are looking for a discount, not an additional cost).


I'm just saying, I don't know for sure that shops will be inclined to risk a sale, by making the sale more expensive.
And we do see plenty of Air II's on divers with short primaries. At least if you could get these guys to drill, they would realize to take advantage of the Air II, they need a long hose...And then as they try again, they may figure out they need to practice air shares a bit....

And now you are a psychic you can tell what the dive store owner is thinking and, of course, he is always trying to rip off the customer.

Again, Octo or AirII, if people hadn't practiced OOA procedures, they will grab the first thing that comes in their sight, their buddy's primary SS. You all seem to just work very hard to find every fault with AirII, real or imagined.

 

[BennyM]

How difficult is it for a diver to follow the instructions: "If you run out of air and need to share air with me, just grab the SS in my mouth"?

I think that some here are trying to "show off" as good instructors and use all that way over used cliches about training and think nothing of blaming individual pieces of equipment or LDS for all of ills of the diving society.

 

[KarolinaKid]

Why do we hate the AirII? I think it's the same reason we hate split fins...they both spawn the most interestingly boring debates...

 

[BennyM]

Why do we hate the AirII? I think it's the same reason we hate split fins...they both spawn the most interestingly boring debates...

Then you are the type that loves pony bottles aren't you??