Why waste money on training!?

[Redshift]

But a big problem with some agencies is that there is no need to fill in the gaps. They let divers progress without mandatory gap-filling courses and with very low minimum dives requirements.

 

[Storker]

course syllabus and standards are applied and accepted by each country.

But we do agree that if any country's association is to award a CMAS cert, it has to adhere to the agency's minimum standards, right?

In case you have problems with PDFs, here are some extracts of the agency's minimum standards and syllabus. There are also links to the full documents, for your enjoyment.

CMAS One Star Diver Programme - Standard

Competencies of a certified CMAS One Star Diver
A CMAS One Star Diver shall be trained such that when assessed by a CMAS Instructor, he shall be deemed to have sufficient knowledge, skill and experience to procure air, equipment, and other diving services and to plan, conduct, and log open-water dives that do not require mandatory inwater decompression stops, without the supervision of a CMAS Instructor or CMAS Dive Leader, when properly equipped and accompanied by another certified diver of at least the same level, provided the diving activities undertaken, the diving conditions and the diving area are similar, equal or better to those in which training was received

A CMAS One Star Diver is qualified to dive within the following parameters:

• To use air as a breathing gas;
• To make dives which do not require mandatory in-water decompression stops;
• To make dives during normal daylight hours;
• To dive in environments where direct vertical access to the surface is possible;
• To dive only when appropriate support is available at the surface; and
• To dive under conditions that are equal or better than the conditions in which he was trained.

tl,dr version: A CMAS* diver is, according to CMAS' minimum standards, qualified to perform basic open water dives independently, without a guide or supervisor. Contrary to any claims that a CMAS* diver only is allowed to dive under supervision.

CMAS Two Star Diver Programme - Standard

Competencies of a certified CMAS Two Star Diver
A CMAS Two Star Diver is qualified to dive within the following parameters unless he has
received additional training or is accompanied by a Dive Leader on any open water dive:

• To dive to a maximum recommended depth of forty (40) metres with other SCUBA divers of the same level;
• To only use air as a breathing gas, unless he is certified to use other breathing gas mixtures;
• To make dives which do not require mandatory in-water decompression stops;
• To participate in night diving activities;
• To dive in environments where direct vertical access to the surface is possible.
• To dive only when appropriate support is available at the surface;
• To dive under conditions that are equal or better than the conditions in which he was trained.

CMAS Two Star Diver Programme - Syllabus

CMAS Two Stars Diver Training Programme
Minimum Training Programme Content

[...]
Diver rescue procedures
The participant shall have an appropriate knowledge concerning the following diver rescue procedures:

• Accident prevention
• Rescuer safety
• Buddy rescue techniques including lifting, towing and landing a diving casualty
• Rescue breathing and Cardio Pulmonary Resuscitation
• Oxygen first-aid

[...]
Advanced diving activities
The participant shall have knowledge concerning the following advanced diving activities (further speciality courses can be taken to specialise in the following areas):

• Deeper diving (dives to a recommended maximum depth of 40 metres)
• Boat diving
• Underwater navigation dives
• Night diving
• Limited visibility diving
• Fresh water diving
• Sea water diving
• Altitude diving
• Computer assisted diving

tl,dr version: A CMAS** diver is, according to CMAS' minimum standards, trained and qualified to perform advanced open water dives on air (deep <40m, night, navigation, limited viz, altitude etc.). A CMAS** diver is also trained in rescue operations. Contrary to the claim that rescue ops have been taken out of CMAS** training.

CMAS Three Star Diver Programme - Standard

CMAS Three Stars Diver
This training programme aims at introducing the fundamentals of dive leadership to experienced certified CMAS Two Star Divers, which will enable them to plan, organise and conduct their dives and lead other sport divers in open water, to a maximum recommended depth of PpO2=1,4b + deep national regulation, meters in a safe and competent manner.
[...]
The CMAS Three Star Sport Diver Training Programme is classified as an entry-level leadership diver training programme.
[...]
A CMAS Three Star Diver is qualified:

• To carry out a risk assessment on a suggested dive location and conditions and to determine its safety:
• To conduct any sport diving activities including Stage Stop decompression diving;
• To conduct any specialised sport diving activities for which he has received appropriate training;
• To plan and execute emergency procedures appropriate for the diving environment and activities;
• To act as an instructional assistant to a CMAS Instructor by controlling students and improving safety. The CMAS Three Star Diver is however not qualified to assess or teach any skills or knowledge to any participant on a CMAS Diver Training Programme.

CMAS Three Star Diver Programme - Syllabus

CMAS Three Stars Diver Training Programme
Minimum Training Programme Content

Advanced Diving Knowledge
The participant shall have mastered a professional level of knowledge of diving theory equal to that of a CMAS Instructor with regard to the following topics:

• Diving Equipment
• The physics of diving
• Medical and psychological issues related to diving
• The use of diving tables and dive computers
• Dive planning
• Diver rescue procedures
• Underwater navigation
• The diving environment

[...]

The participant shall have a professional level of knowledge and understanding of the following dive leadership topics that will allow him to plan, execute and lead other divers on open water dives in all typical conditions encountered in the local environment, to plan for and respond to possible emergencies during such dives and to serve as an instructional assistant to a CMAS Instructor during diver training programmes:

• The role of the CMAS Dive Leader
• Diving related legislation and requirements
• Dive planning duties and responsibilities
• Dive management and control
• Rescue management
• Working with a CMAS Instructor as an Instructional Assistant

[...]

Open water skills

• All skills mastered during Diver One Star and Diver Two Star courses need to be perfected and may be examined during the assessment dives
• Surface marker buoy skills
• Deep diving skills
• Underwater navigation skills
• Rescue skills
• The participant shall demonstrate diver rescue skills by completing at least one open water
  rescue. The rescue exercise shall include in the following:
  • Recognition of emergency situations (e.g. loss of breathing gas supply, lack of response)
  • Basic underwater search techniques
  • Controlled casualty recovery from depth
  • Effective emergency surface actions
  • Casualty recovery from the water
  • Emergency situation management including co-ordination with emergency services
  • First-Aid treatment and Cardiopulmonary Resuscitation (CPR)
  • Oxygen Administration
• Dive leadership skills

tl,dr version: A CMAS*** diver is, according to CMAS' minimum standards, a qualified dive leader trained in dive medicine, dive planning and rescue ops, and is also qualified to assist a CMAS instructor during teaching (basically, a fully competent divemaster). Contrary to the claim that rescue ops have been taken out of CMAS*** training.

I'm still waiting for your cite, and I'd like to remind you that these are the agency's minimum standards. If a club or an association awards CMAS certs below the minimum I've cited, they are breaking the agency's standards in a gross manner and should have their certification rights revoked.


EDIT: Personally, I couldn't give a rat's a$$ about the specific lettering on a person's c-card(s) as I prefer to evaluate the diver and his/her skills and attitudes, but your gross misrepresentation of diver qualifications as specified by the certification agency is even worse that the idiotic "war" between PADI and CMAS certifications we had here a couple of decades ago (that one went so far as that the Norwegian Diving Association at one time put forth a demand that any diver who was going to dive in a club associated with them had to be CMAS certified. Luckily, that kind of stupid regulations are a thing of the past)

 

[Redshift]

Storker,

I was also surprised by those comments and not sure he wasn't referring to other systems, as rhwestfall proposed.

But on the supervised / autonomous diver issue, as I said somewhere else, some time ago, P1 was in the past, maybe not everywhere, but in some countries, a supervised diver. Things have changed and now it's hard to find such things written down, it's so easy to modify a website... but still I found some cases where that is still stated:

Espirito Azul - Centro e Loja de Mergulho "A CMAS P1 diver (Supervised Diver) is capable to dive in an area of protected waters up to 20m of depth being prepared to earn experience in open water accompanied by a dive that has at least a CMAS P2..." (In my time it was even necessary a P3)

http://www.google.fi/url?sa=t&rct=j...=VvA9Dl58g7QfsIiVjl0O6Q&bvm=bv.62286460,d.bGE Here they restrict P1 to 10m or the common 20m only when with a P3.

"Certified KDP CMAS P1 Diver is allowed to:

a) dive under supervision of Diving Monitor or Diver P3 with individual buoy to the depth of 10 meters or with another P1 diver to the depth of 10 meters
b) dive with adult P2 diver to the depth of 10 meters
c) dive in group with P3 diver or Diving Monitor to the depth of 20 meters"


Anyway, minimum standards relate to maximum liberties. So it's possible either to elevate requirements or to lower the limits of a certain level. CMAS endorses the first and I'm not sure that now they'd allow for the second (those links I've shown are outdated, they were just to show how things have been).


As for the case in Norway where they wanted club divers to be certified by CMAS, it doesn't make sense (and glad that didn't go through), but it makes some sense that if they were CMAS clubs, divers should be somehow affiliated to CMAS even if via the Norwegian Diving Association. It's the same with BSAC clubs. They'll probably let you try one or two dives, but if one wants to join the club, one needs to join BSAC as well.

 

[Storker]

As for the case in Norway where they wanted club divers to be certified by CMAS, it doesn't make sense (and glad that didn't go through)

It did. For a while. Fortunately, that stupid decision was reversed well before I certified.

it makes some sense that if they were CMAS clubs, divers should be somehow affiliated to CMAS even if via the Norwegian Diving Association.

Not really. You have to separate the issues.

Norwegian diving clubs are organized bottom-up and are basically non-profit. A bunch of local divers get together and decide to form a club. The club can join the Norwegian Diving Association for certain benefits, or it can choose to be independent. However, that would cause certain problems, as organized sport is expected to take place under the umbrella of The Norwegian Olympic and Paralympic Committee and Confederation of Sports, and our Diving Association is affiliated to that committee. So, any negotiations with authorities would be severely hampered, and they wouldn't be eligible for public grants given to organized sport in Norway, financed through public tax money. So, there's a strong incentive for any sports club to join the appropriate national Federation.

The Norwegian Diving Association is affiliated with CMAS and offers CMAS training. I have no problem that a club associated with our Diving Association is required to provide only CMAS training. On the other hand, I have a big problem if a couple of the guys in the club should be refused to dive with their friends on club outings just because they had chosen to certify with another agency sometime in the past. Apartheid, anyone? Also, the Association doesn't own the clubs. It's the other way around.

Our local clubs, BTW, welcome members with any cert, be it CMAS, PADI, GUE, IANTD, BSAC or any other recognized agency. We're in the club because we like to dive together. Period. (That there's some occasional good-natured bickering among some of us about PADI cocktail divers or GUE nazis is quite another story )

 

[Redshift]

What I meant with being affiliated was different from being certified. Because the club is also affiliated to the NDA (and therefore CMAS), club members benefit from that (through, as you have mentioned, negotiations, grants, etc) and I think it's reasonable that in return club members should be affiliated with NDA. NDA needs to show it is speaking on behalf of a good portion of divers to have any weight on any governmental decisions and to get more money. That's what they need in return for the services they provide to divers.
I don't know how that affiliation would be, but for instance I was a BSAC member because I belonged to a BSAC club, although without having a BSAC qualification. There was a BSAC membership that came with a few privileges (magazine, insurance, etc...) and it didn't require a BSAC cert. Any diver could join.

 

[Storker]

for instance I was a BSAC member because I belonged to a BSAC club, although without having a BSAC qualification. There was a BSAC membership that came with a few privileges (magazine, insurance, etc...) and it didn't require a BSAC cert. Any diver could join.

Bolding mine, and just the way it should be.

Affiliation &#8800; required certification agency &#8800; qualification.

 

[DCBC]

You can't provide a cite for your unsubstantiated and AFAIK completely wrong claims about CMAS syllabi and standards...

In 2011, I agreed to take on a temporary position (12 months) as the Managing Director and CEO of the Canadian Sport Diving Federation (the National Federation for CMAS at that time). It became my job to write the Canadian CMAS training requirements that were subsequently submitted for approval to the CMAS Technical Committee.

As P1 was considered to be a novice diver rating, it was recommended that a P1 diver be required to dive with someone with more experience (P2+). The logic behind this was that P1 divers were not trained in rescue and were therefore deemed to not provide an acceptable level of safety to the Buddy team. This is not unlike PADI whose instructors are prohibited from introducing underwater rescue to OW students. Like Redshift has mentioned, Canada has not been the only Country that has felt this way.

Since this time, CMAS has made some revisions to their training policies; which I suspect have had something to do with changes in European legislation (although I can't be sure of the reason). Most diving agencies have lowered their Standards for certification over the past 40 years; making it easier to be certified in less time with lower requirements (I was certified as a CMAS Instructor in 1971 and still teach their technical programs).

To eliminate confusion, I have always felt that CMAS has held some of the highest standards in the industry. Like many other agencies (with the exception of PADI), they have established 'minimum standards' and have encouraged their instructors to surpass them.

 

[Storker]

As P1 was considered to be a novice diver rating, it was recommended that a P1 diver be required to dive with someone with more experience (P2+).

OK, that's a recommendation I can understand and support. Not as a requirement, but as a recommendation. It makes sense, safety-wise.

However, since I know divers with >30 year old CMAS certs who never have been told that it was a requirement and thus happily dived independently (not to be confused with "self-reliant", apparently the current buzzword for "solo") with their equally certified buddies, I have a major problem accepting, without a proper cite, claims that a CMAS* diver is/was not allowed to dive without supervision.

Also, while apologizing for my harsh and aggressive wording in my later posts, I still won't accept claims that rescue ops have been taken out of CMAS** or CMAS*** training, as shown by my cites of the agency's minimum standards.

I have always felt that CMAS has held some of the highest standards in the industry

I'm PADI certified, and since I now have the required plastic to dive within my personal boundaries, even on babysitting-prone resorts who may not be familiar with every agency, I'm planning to take any further certs in the CMAS system. From my experience with PADI syllabi and practices, and from my research on CMAS syllabi and standards. Just for the sake of my own competence and quality of training.

 

[DCBC]

Isn't it ironic that this thread that is about how dangerous it is not skip training while nearly half the threads on ScubaBoard are about how poor today's training is.

It is. I suppose that the argument could be repeated with many other activities. Sky-diving isn't regulated in Canada either. There is nothing stopping someone from renting a chute and jumping out of an airplane.

Most people want quick and cheap and it is out there there to be had. There are more comprehensive courses too. Usually at a cost. The best value courses seem to be offered through Universities, Government agencies or Clubs. Of course in those cases the full cost is usually not being paid for by the students.

If you feel it logical to seek training before you dive, it's equally logical to insure that the training you receive will be sufficient. I agree with you that the best programs are offered through Universities and Clubs. Training through these sources however may take more time, but it's time well spent imo.

---------- Post added March 4th, 2014 at 06:16 AM ----------

...I have a major problem accepting, without a proper cite, claims that a CMAS* diver is/was required to dive under supervision.

In an activity that is unregulated in most areas, nothing is required. You don't require any certification to dive at all. Depth restrictions are only recommendations. Being trained in the use of Nitrox, Trimix, or Heliox is only recommended before you use these gases. If you exceed the decompression limits, it's only recommended that you decompress in a controlled manner. A Cave course is only recommended before you venture into a cave. It's only recommended that you get training in a closed-circuit rebreather before using one. Recommendations are all we have...

Also, while apologizing for my harsh and aggressive wording in my later posts...

Yes you seemed somewhat testy, but no problems.

I'm PADI certified, and since I now have the required plastic to dive within my personal boundaries, even on babysitting-prone resorts who may not be familiar with every agency, I'm planning to take any further certs in the CMAS system. From my experience with PADI syllabi and practices, and from my research on CMAS syllabi and standards. Just for the sake of my own competence and quality of training.

I agree; I believe that the CMAS training system is much more inclusive (especially if you can find an instructor who teaches past the minimums). Good luck with your training!

 

[bobfmdc]

" from the comfort of his armchair today"

Yep. (cough cough hack hack) that's the way we did it, sonny.

Now I'm 72 and still diving 50 dives a year. Did Galapagos last spring and still hit a zero vis archaeology project every year in the Chesapeake Bay or Potomac River. And I don't dive the same way I did 40+ years ago.

But you missed my point, of course. It was that I don't think most new divers get enough realistic training before they are certified to do dives on their own. Yes, I taught myself because scuba courses were new back then. Fortunately, I never got hurt very bad. The open water courses were more rigorous when they first started back in the 60s. Today, most people do OK anyway eventually, or quit diving. Some don't do ok, have an emergency and someone has to step in. I have seen that many times.

When was the last time you heard of someone taking the basic open water course and failing?