Why would you want to dump weight?

[MikeFerrara]

It has been interesting reading this thread. Seems to be a lot of folks who jump to extreme conclusions based on what I don't know.

Based on the comments about dead divers being found with their weights on and the specific reference to panic being the cause of the failure to drop weights. Not a conclusion but a response to a comment.

First, of all needing to drop weights doesn't mean the diver is overweighted. It just means that without dropping them in the present circumstances the diver doesn't have enough lift to get to the surface, or to remain on the surface.

If you don't have enough lift to get to the surface you are either using a lot of tank or you are over weighted. In recreational...single tank diving it shouldn't possible.

Properly weighted in the context of most recreational diving means being megative only by the weight of the air you're carrying...6 pounds? I have 4 pounds that I can drop when diving a single tank. Drop it or not I can stay at the surface. If my tank is empty I don't need to drop it unless I want to sit hight enough in the water to take a nap.

Second, dropping weights doesn't mean the diver is going to be panicky, injured or any of those things.

No but the failure to drop them when there is a need is sure likely to be due to panic and that's what we were talking about...the divers who fail to drop them.

Gee, when we were practicing Unconcious Diver Rescue during my OW certification I don't recall any of the "victims" or "rescuers" ending up with any injuries. Nor did the actual victim from a separate real incident that weekend. In all cases either all or part of the weights were dropped.

When dealing with an unconcious diver you need to get them to the surface and keep them there of course. Once they are at the surface the weights serve no purpose and you may be planning to remove their equipment prior to egress and it certainly makes sense to remove weights before removing other floatation like a bc. Again that's not what we were talking about.

When to drop part or all of your weights?

In a situation when the diver needs to be positively on the surface and for some reason can't guarantee it by some other way. For example: An unconcious diver, One of those dives whose boat left them, or any similiar time.

When in a down current where trying to swim out of the current, upward finning and inflating the BC didn't solve the problem. Personally, I've been in one of these where I was to the point of dropping weights when the current finally let me go.

By all means get rid of it.

There may be others, but these are good examples.

So, in Open Water any time you can't get to the surface, or stay on the surface by conventional means, Drop Weights. If you are rigged so you can drop weights incrementally all the better.

Why would you not be able to get to the surface?

Now the rules change a bit when there is a Hard Overhead, like a wreck or a cave. Being pinned to the top of a compartment in a wreck doesn't solve very many problems. But then the kind of situation where the extra lift would be helpful, like a down current, doesn't come into play either, at least in wrecks( I don't do caves either above, or below water).

Again the diver shouldnb't be so negative that droping weights is going to be much help. Once you do get out of the down welling you may be faced with a rapid ascent...which may be better than ending up at 3000 ft. Then again you got into the down welling somehow and may be able to get out the same way...getting close to the wall or whatever.

If it is a Soft Overhead, like a Deco Obligation then the diver is exchanging a certain bad outcome for the possibility of a better outcome. Part of the risks and rewards of Deco Diving.

With a significant decompression obligation it's not much of a trade. Bailing out for the surface is really just not an option and most often there isn't much if any ditchable weight anyway.

The point is that if equipment is balanced the rapid ditching of weight should never be a life or death issue.

That doesn't mean that there isn't ever a situation when you might want to but it does mean that you'll always have enough control to give you plenty of time to do it and that you can get to the surface without dumping weight.

 

[Dave_1985]

Pretty much a spin off of another thread about here last week so i'll just briefly restate my position.

I believe weight jettison for recreational diving is a hangover from the days of the ABLJ and before that where you had no buoyancy comepensation at all.

These days i cant envisage any situation ever where weight jettison should prove neccesary for a recreational diver.

If you arent overweighted, firstly you should be able to fin up against the weight to initiate the ascent and then once its started dump to manage it.

When i dive i have 3 possible buoyancy sources, i have my BC, my drysuit and my DSMB. My buddy also has the same giving us 6 possible methods of getting to the surface in a controlled manner.

If i have an incident underwater and am rendered unconcious i expect my buddy to be able to perform a controlled buoyancy lift on me and not just rocket me.

A weight belt release from any respectable depth can result in gas embolism, barotrauma in various ways and DCS or any combination of the above. From a deep depth this will probably be crippling or possible fatal.

There are far more accidents caused by weight belts accidentally releasing than there are prevented had the weight belt been jettisoned according to all the latest reports.

Given all the redundancy and proper weight with non-tech equipment and the like i fail to see any situation at all where weight belt dumping would be more beneficial than the other courses of action available.

On the surface provided someone isnt monsterously overweighted its quite possible to tow a diver whilst administering AV without ditching their belt as well.[/QUOTE]

possible yes, but in that sort of situation, speed in getting the diver to the boat is often imperative. its the fastest and easiest way of making a diver positivly bouyant at the surface.

 

[crispos]

Well, this has been interesting reading. But there does seem to be more of the older divers voting for possible scenarios where ditching at depth might be necessary.

Maybe they have been on the planet just abit longer than some of the younger folk?

My attitude on this subject, was, and continues to be, that I follow standards and my teaching materials, unless I think they are wrong, in which case I email my superiors.

Maybe I should have joined the Army, eh?

Please note that we Instructors and DM's must be very careful what we tell students and new divers because we are accountable for what we say. It isn't just pushing ones own position here.

I always try and take away something from these threads even though they are time consuming to read. I am going to be very careful to reiterate that weight ditching at depth is a LAST RESORT option, as it says in the books.

Now, I am the last person to need to ditch weights. I can do 2 1/2 lengths of the pool on one breath and used to do 3. I am a powerful swimmer (I didn't say far though). I enjoy practicing CESA's from 80 feet depth. But someone mentioned heart attacks...

Yeah, I am 47, it's possible I might have a heart attack at depth. I might NOT be able to do those little fin kicks, perfectly weighted that I am. If you are 27, you probably don't think about something like that. You are invincible (I know I was).

Anyways, if anyone wishes, I will email Drew Richardson (Head of PADI Training) about this weight belt ditch business. Because I certainly don't want to teach unsafe diving.

I did exactly that when we had a bunch of people arguing about PFO's and how we weren't being honest with our OW students in NOT describing the PFO risks they were taking. One of Richardson's staff answered, and gave me PADI's position in clear language.

That is what we Instructors need, clear language, opinions are very numerous.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Crispos,

I think training standards are pretty clear on what is to be taught with regard to weight ditching...at depth it's a last resort...and at the surface...when in doubt, pitch the weight.

Standards are also clear that divers are to be properly weighted. Instructors often fail here by overweighting students to make their own job easier...or so they think.

I think though that training could be better in the area of teaching students how to balance a rig so they have the right amount of ditchable weight.

Having the correct amount of weight and the correct amount of detatchable weight reduces the consequences of losing weights at depth or being slow to drop them at the surface.

 

[Winton]

o, ya, your're right...

I have been with a group were a bunch of us dumped weight, it was for comfort on a long un-expected surface swim.

I have to agree with the re-occuring theme in this thread that, all things proper there is no reason to dump your weights.

Getting bent, from my what I have seen, is more often than not a product of bounce diving, although there is that rare rapid asscent that leads to DCS or worse I reckon.

I'm not a rescue diver yet but according to what I have already learned - not quite. You ascend on the unconscious diver's BC, not on your own. But that's a different topic.
Coming back to weights. I know a person who got deadly scared underwater. This could end up in person's death in fact. But he dumped weights, ascended in uncontrolled way ended up in the hyperbaric chamber and survived. Otherwise it wouldn't be so sure.
Mania

 

[-hh]

Well, this has been interesting reading. But there does seem to be more of the older divers voting for possible scenarios where ditching at depth might be necessary.

Maybe they have been on the planet just abit longer than some of the younger folk?

Maybe. It could also be a different level/type of understanding, perhaps in part from having lived through the changes in the industry over the past few decades.


For example, in getting back to the original question, I saw the answer as quite simple and straightforward:

For OW/Rec, the surface simplistically represents "safety", so being able to ditch weights to get/stay there is simply one more contingency option (and yes, there are trade-offs).

But for Cave/Wreck, the physical ceiling overhead is just yet another part of that environment's restrictions environment, so it is not a "safe" destination for purposes of worse-case contingency planning.

As such, since that contingency option is of low value, the need for having the additional complexity of the necessary enablers for ditching weight (& gear) is of no net effective value for that environment, so it is unnecessary complexity that can be eliminated.

However, it should be clearly noted that these conclusions apply to their specific dive environments as listed: caution is required when trying to apply the one to the other, so as to not muck up individual system requirements and constraints.


-hh

 

[dweeb]

Mania's right, but I also think that the word 'rapid' used in describing the weight dumping is a simplification or abbreviation if you like. If you get into a situation where weight dumping is really your only option, the process needs to be as simple as possible.

Exactly. The situations where you want to dump weights are very rare, but if you find yourself in one, you don't want to have to think about how.

 

[ArcticDiver]

That doesn't mean that there isn't ever a situation when you might want to but it does mean that you'll always have enough control to give you plenty of time to do it and that you can get to the surface without dumping weight.

When all the bandwidth used to state personal biases and circumlocutions is considered it all comes down to this: "should" vs. "real".

Don't think anyone argues that a diver should be balanced. Also, that a diver should be properly weighted. Now the definition of "properly weighted" is a whole other discussion itself since it depends on several environmental factors. (Theres a hook for you).

But reality is that there will be situations where dropping weights is necessary. That is why the certification agencies teach the process. It is also why many, if not most, of us intelligently split our weights to manage as much as possible the resulting ascent.

So, to answer the original question, which has almost been lost in the distance: Just like most of us were taught, drop weights when needed to get bouyancy. Dropping weight doesn't signify panic. In fact not dropping weight when you should is a panic indicator.

 

[MikeFerrara]

When all the bandwidth used to state personal biases and circumlocutions is considered it all comes down to this: "should" vs. "real".

Which persona' bias are you refering to?

Don't think anyone argues that a diver should be balanced. Also, that a diver should be properly weighted. Now the definition of "properly weighted" is a whole other discussion itself since it depends on several environmental factors. (Theres a hook for you).

No, there's a hook for you. LOL Which environmental factors change the definition of "properly weighted"?

Dropping weight doesn't signify panic. In fact not dropping weight when you should is a panic indicator.

Agreed and I haven't coticed any one saying anything different in this thread.

The only discussion of panic that I've seen in this thread was in reference to the divers who are found dead with their weights still in place (failure to drop weights). It seems like you're trying to debate with some one saying that droping weights is an indication of panic but I haven't seen that said in this thread.

If you're trying to make another point I guess I'm missing it.

 

[Rick Murchison]

The thing to remember is that the FIRST TIME in the dive you think about dumping weight is the time to do it.

AMEN to that, Fred.
AMEN!
Rick