Wide angle rectilinear versus fisheye

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A) The remark about depth of field was, in context, a guess about what the poster meant by "one-dimensional". Some interpretation must be given to this, since all photographs are in fact, two dimensional. My comment was meant to imply that the only meaning I can get from such a criticism is that the depth of field on the fisheye is too great, whereas the the 7-14 is not. Notwithstanding you might have actually read what I said "...If you don't want things to be in focus from 8mm to infinity..."; and not made such a tirade. I didn't say what was, conveyed that you need all the depth of field you can get when shooting big animals.

B) If you have a problem with the table I supplied, then by all means correct the figures. In case you did not know it, there is often talk here of re-using flat ports for other lenses because they will fit. I'm sorry if you didn't like my providing information on why that is a bad idea. Perhaps the calculations were wrong? I did round the numbers, I really should have clarified the last bullet point about 9-18 with "in a flat port", but I figure other people could do the math themselves. Hence the table.

C) I said it was lighter and less expensive. You then rant on and on about how I am right; it is lighter and cheaper. Moreover, it is smaller; a significant consideration for anyone with limited packing space for travel.

D) I don't know what your problem about the dome ports is. All of the DSLRs on the boat were using giant 12-14" domes. That is a fact.. Anybody knows that there are 25.4mm per inch. I never said anything except that the DSLR folks were eye-balling my MFT and it's compactness and it's 4.33" dome with keen interest. BTW: congratulations, you win. Yours is definitely smaller than mine.

The post that I was speaking to was specifically OM-D MFT, and that blanket advice given in that post was what I was replying to. Read for content and interpret in context.

E) I have plenty of shots of Humpbacks, but unfortunately, I did not have a fisheye, or even WA. I assure you, I wished I did. Silver Banks is not far from Fort Lauderdale and Tom Conlin and Aquatic Adventures run trips every year; so do Dancer and Aggressor, but having been with Tom and his excellent crew, and custom-built chase boats, I wouldn't go with anyone else. It's not hard to do. You should try it sometime.

F) Nobody knows who you are You claim to post under a real name, but there is just no verifying it. You say it's you, but that just doesn't mean squat. You don't show ID to get an email address. No doubt you will huff an puff about all the board members you've met who, all taken together, do not constitute legal identification. Just go ahead and try to board a plane with "Pufferfish knows me" as your only ID; or try "I have website!". It's a nasty cyber world out there. Do what you like and stop pretending that your choice makes you superior.

G) When you quote people other people in your posts it is the height of dishonesty to misquote them(as you did). You also need to learn what words mean and how to interpret sentence construction. Do you know what "probably" means? Do you know why I said that? Do you realize that "my favorites" are different than "your favorites" and there is no absolutely positively no argument about that? The whole thing is subjective

BTW, I did not say anything offensive or untrue about Guy Harrison. I perused his online portfolio and complimented it; did you? Did you see any Underwater photos? I didn't but I may have missed something. Your platitudes about air photography and water photograph are flat out wrong. Photographic principles, and the art of composition translate very well, but that doesn't mean squat until you know what your subjects are, what they do, how to approach them, and have the skills necessary to do so.

Clearly you are a fan of choosing your U/W lenses based on in-air utility. Congratulations.

My Lightroom gallery has about 11,000 U/W shots in it, dating back to 2004 starting on a lowly Sony P200 with no strobes. I outright delete 50% or more on first review. I guess I have at most 50 good U/W photographs and maybe 200 that are decent; the rest are specimens and memories. It is quite a bit harder to turn out a decent shot with P&S than with $20,000 image processing super computer. High priced equipment

I had almost 1000 dives in my log before I ever took a camera underwater. I have at my feet, a Nikon F3, and a Leica M6J. I started photography in about 1969, so I know more than a little about what translates and what doesn't.

It was good of you to drop by and remind me why this board is such a waste of time. Taken in context , I said nothing offensive or incorrect.
 
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All due respect to Guy Harrison, who's air photos are quite nice, if you take the time to look at his portfolio, you will see next to nothing in U/W photography. In all candor his opinions appear to be highly biased by his land experience and lack of U/W photographic experience (one might also surmise that he does not have a fisheye lens and port for U/W). No doubt about it, if you want the lens for in-air shots and shooting architecture, the 8mm FE is not the lens for you.

One of the criticisms was that it[8mm] was "one dimensional". Just exactly what is "One-dimensional"? If you don't want things to be in focus from 8mm to infinity, then you haven't been in the water with a Whaleshark, Manta, or Humpback, or else you haven't taken a good photo of them.


  • One of the most popular wet mount WA lenses in the world the UWL-04 is a 165° FOV. Fisheye.
  • Probably near 100% of the best big animal U/W photos you have ever seen were shot with a fisheye.
  • With the widest rectilinear mft, you will get maybe 114°; significantly less without an optically correct dome.
  • The rectilinear lens is bigger and heavier.
  • The 7-14 is egregiously expensive.
  • The 9-18 only give about 19% increase over the 12-50.

MFT Lens focal length
FOV (air or correct dome)
FOV (flat port)
12-50mm
84°
60°
9-18mm
100°
74.6°
7-14mm
114°
85°
8mm FE
180°
n/a

Having just returned from Isla del Coco, I can tell you 3 things:
  1. Fisheye was the weapon of choice for every camera in the water there.
  2. Every DSLR-owner was eyeballing my 4.33" dome with notable interest (as compared to their giant domes).
  3. Next time, I won't even bother taking the 12-50 to Cocos, or silver banks, or any other big critter destination.

Now, if your primary concern for your camera and lens is land-based photography, then guy harrisons POV makes a lot of sense. But if you are an underwater photographer, I think it's near heresy to contemplate in-air utility for your lens choices underwater. Except for the fact of a camera being involved the two subjects are unrelated.

If your interest is U/W photography and you can have only one WA lens(in addition to the the 12-50), IMO the 8mm is your best choice, hands down. You just can't appreciate it until you have it in the water. It is very good for photographing other divers. You can easily get the whole diver (or several) while being close enough to light them with your strobes. A significant benefit, not to be understated for travelers (ie those who actually use their rigs) is the space and weight savings of this setup.

The 8mm can make do for some macro work, too. I posted this before in another thread but the Scubaboard uploader trashed it.

Please click on the thumb, then click on the image to see the full-resolution and incredible detail provided by this "one dimensional" lens.


Hello Bullshark

I think you have presented a good case for fisheye, in certain circumstances. In the post I made that was linked to earlier, I was responding to a photographer who was both cost-conscious, who was getting his first wide angle lens, and who was going to use his wide angle lens topside as well as underwater. I think I stand by the advice I gave to him, given his circumstances.

As to my comment that the fisheye was "one dimensional" I do stand by that as well. You have only one angle of view, and you always have the strong distortion of the lens to contend with. You can not zoom or change perspective. In that sense, it is "one dimensional" compared to a zoom.

That is not to say, though, it cannot be the best tool for some things. Your "big animal" example is a good one, but I have shot big animals up close and personal with my ultra-wide rectlinear as well. In fact, on a recent shark trip, it was much better to have the zoom because many animals stood off a bit, and I shot a surprising number of photos at 12-18mm. Still, if I was going in the water with whales or whalesharks, I would seriously consider renting a fisheye and dome for that specific purpose, which gets us back to the "one dimensional" issue again.

The fisheye is much more difficult to master and use effectively for scenics. It can certainly be done, just look at some of Alex Mustard's or David Boubilet's work. However, the ultra-wide zoom is, I believe, a better choice for someone getting their first wide angle set-up. I could have gotten whatever I wanted and I went with the zoom for those reasons.

I also am not too concerned that "everyone else" on a dive trip is using a fisheye. As I said, professionals get some incredible shots with that type of lens and many photographers are inspired to buy one for that reason. Also, lots of fisheye would be expected on a dedicated (one dimensional?) big animal trip. The photographers might only need or want a single perspective in that situation.

However,as for scenics, many amateur shots I have seen with a fisheye, and especially scenics, are just not effective because the photographer is not close enough, there is no central subject, and too much background is captured. Like I said, a difficult lens to master. For all-around wide angle shooting of a variety of subjects like, scenics, big animals, wrecks, reefs, the ultra-wide zoom is just a better choice.

And, just so you know, a fisheye is in my future, eventually. Just not as my first or primary wide angle.

Also, anyone reviewing your chart should compare the AOV of the 12-50 in the flat port to the AOV of the 9-18 in the dome. In fact, you have quite a large difference in view between the 9 and 12mm range (40 degrees). I do not recommend the 9-18 in a flat port as you need the dome to get the most out of it. Similarly, I don't recommend the 12-50 in a dome because you loose the excellent macro functionality. The 12-50 is a wonderful generalist lens. I would never leave it behind, especially on a once-in-a-lifetime trip.

By the way, I do not think your post was a waste of time, as people want to see different perspectives. However, the fact that I have not yet had time to post a lot of my images should not be used against me, I think.
 
Thanks Storker, I will have a close look at those threads. At a glance it looks like there will be some useful material in there.

---------- Post added February 10th, 2013 at 08:56 PM ----------


A good question Interceptor and in reality this question is partly to help me decide what direction to take in upgrading my camera.

At present I just have a Canon S95 in Canon housing. Being on a budget I am thinking of upgrading this by addition of a strobe and wet lenses (preferably via an Inon LD adaptor). Importantly I would be looking at buying stuff that could be used on other cameras if I upgrade to a new camera.

In the long term I am considering either a Sony RX100 (so could make use of the wet lenses I plan on buying for the Canon), or moving to an Olympus E-PL5 (would probably go for the 9 - 18 lens in that case).

Have been wondering about the Inon UWL-100 but not sure if it will be wide enough for the 'stunning reef shot with diver in background and sunburst'. Adding the optional dome would give me adequate wide angle, but I figure would introduce significant barrel distortion. Also concerned about size and weight (and cost) of the Inon with dome.

None of the add on wet lenses for compact cameras are rectilinear wide angle, with or without a dome. They are fisheye above the surface and still have significant fisheye barrel distortion underwater. Most wet lenses that I have used, and I own several, perform better with a dome and have better edge sharpness and are generally more useful with a dome.

Now, if you were talking SLR, then a good rectilinear 20mm/24mm wide angle behind an appropriate dome is a very useful lens.


N
 


A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

Not exactly the picture of civility, this thread is... No need to take shots at each other. Sometimes it's better to shutter your anger and just assume others aren't maligning you. Remember the internet rule of thirds to keep your composure: split the time you plan to spend writing a post into 3 parts. Spend one third preparing your post. Spend one third writing it, and spend the last third going through it to make sure you are always polite.

Enough photo puns, hopefully enough moderation, as well.
 
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