Would you dive Cuba if it opens for Americans??

[AggieDiver]

The reluctance to travel to Cuba by some Americans who bleat about freedom and an oppressive Federal Government makes me laugh. Cuba is a great deal freer than some countries to which many divers travel with hardly a second thought.

Talk about not thinking for yourself, and the assertion that ignorance is bliss. Trust the government to tell me what is ethical? Are you serious? Cuba has been attacked by terrorists for decades, but we still insisted on classifying Cuba as a terrorist nation, even as they were building hospitals and supplying physicians to poor nations.

The terrorists were headquartered in Miami, so maybe that had something to do with it.

I'd go just for the music and the culture.

Oh believe me, I don't hold up our government as any great virtuous beacon of freedom anymore. But I am stuck living here as I don't necessarily think things are much better anywhere else. But at the very least, we have the opportunity to choose who our oppressors will be every few years and are free to say just about anything we want about our government in the meantime. When Cubans are free to choose their own government in a truly free election and say and print whatever they want about them in public, and still choose the Castros to govern them, then I will consider the other virtues of going there.

FWIW, I don't limit that opinion to just Cuba. There are a number of countries in the world that I won't visit for that same reason. I am not the least concerned about terrorism from Cuba against the US, and I don't know anybody who is. I am far more concerned about the Cuban gov't terrorizing its own citizens, and that is what I choose not to support.

 

[Lorenzoid]

It is purely my own bias, and I understand if not everybody agrees, but I won't be going to Cuba until there is a regime change that recognizes basic human rights for the Cuban people. . . .
I won't be going to Cuba and allowing my money to have a role in perpetuating that government. I do hope that the presence of more American money coming in fuels a black market beyond the control of the government, and that the freedoms necessary to operate that growing economy spawns a new revolution among the people of Cuba towards a more democratic government. . . .

I suspect that other Americans who are similarly critical of the Cuban government will eagerly participate in the experiment to see if spending their money in Cuba as tourists helps bring about a more democratic government. I won't be critical of you choosing to sit on the sidelines waiting to see if it happens, but I myself look forward to spending money in Cuba to see if it helps. I realize there are two schools of thought on this, and I am in the camp that believes spending money there does more to help individual Cubans than it does to help perpetuate the current regime. There is already a considerable amount of small private business occurring that has been permitted under the loosened rules in recent years, and the Cuban people are already directly benefiting. In other words, it's not even just the black market anymore that is providing money directly into the Cuban people's pockets.

 

[agilis]

Oh believe me, I don't hold up our government as any great virtuous beacon of freedom anymore. But I am stuck living here as I don't necessarily think things are much better anywhere else. But at the very least, we have the opportunity to choose who our oppressors will be every few years and are free to say just about anything we want about our government in the meantime. When Cubans are free to choose their own government in a truly free election and say and print whatever they want about them in public, and still choose the Castros to govern them, then I will consider the other virtues of going there.

FWIW, I don't limit that opinion to just Cuba. There are a number of countries in the world that I won't visit for that same reason. I am not the least concerned about terrorism from Cuba against the US, and I don't know anybody who is. I am far more concerned about the Cuban gov't terrorizing its own citizens, and that is what I choose not to support.

If the problem is nations that terrorize their own citizens, citizens who do not have the privilege of choosing their oppressors every few years, you have pretty much severed the Red Sea from your potential agenda. Then there is China to consider; as they expand their 'historic borders' far into the world's oceans this may become a problem. But this is just the tip of the iceberg.

The legitimacy of elections must also be considered, I would think. There are many places that hold elections that are basically pro forma, because the candidates are selected through essentially non-democratic methods: monolithic parties and billionaire campaign donors. Perhaps we should not look too closely at this. The consequences might require most of us to hang up our fins.

 

[Seya]

It is purely my own bias, and I understand if not everybody agrees, but I won't be going to Cuba until there is a regime change that recognizes basic human rights for the Cuban people. I know I am inviting all of the non-Americans to come in and tell me how awesome Cuba's government is and how their excellent health care system more than makes up for all the food and good shortages and mandatory miniscule salaries and lack of basic freedoms like free speech against the government. But I just feel like the Castro brothers have made a fortune and lived a very good life while they made their people so miserable that thousands believed that climbing into an overloaded boat with no motor and trying to sail to Honduras during hurricane season was better than spending one more day on the island. I won't be going to Cuba and allowing my money to have a role in perpetuating that government. I do hope that the presence of more American money coming in fuels a black market beyond the control of the government, and that the freedoms necessary to operate that growing economy spawns a new revolution among the people of Cuba towards a more democratic government...but I doubt it will happen until the Castro brothers are dead.

Ha ha Americans talking like they are the high bar for freedom and moral standards. Look in the mirror and fix your own country

Sent from my LG-H812 using Tapatalk

 

[agilis]

I suspect that other Americans who are similarly critical of the Cuban government will eagerly participate in the experiment to see if spending their money in Cuba as tourists helps bring about a more democratic government. I won't be critical of you choosing to sit on the sidelines waiting to see if it happens, but I myself look forward to spending money in Cuba to see if it helps. I realize there are two schools of thought on this, and I am in the camp that believes spending money there does more to help individual Cubans than it does to help perpetuate the current regime. There is already a considerable amount of small private business occurring that has been permitted under the loosened rules in recent years, and the Cuban people are already directly benefiting. In other words, it's not even just the black market anymore that is providing money directly into the Cuban people's pockets.

I've been visiting the Caribbean for nearly half a century. My general impression, developed over all those years, is that Cuba has been more a force for good there than we have. Consider the history of Puerto Rico.

I remember reading a poem once, a very long time ago, by a Latin American poet. I can't remember who it was any more, but the poem was about Puerto Rico's experiences with the United States and the poet was not himself Puerto Rican. It was in Spanish and may not have been widely translated into English. The line I remember most vividly, translated in my own memory was "When will Borinquenos finally draw their knives?".

We forget what bastards we have been, or have never been told the truth. Consider the Texas State School Board's policy on textbooks, and they are only one example.

 

[drrich2]

...but I myself look forward to spending money in Cuba to see if it helps. I realize there are two schools of thought on this, and I am in the camp that believes spending money there does more to help individual Cubans than it does to help perpetuate the current regime. There is already a considerable amount of small private business occurring that has been permitted under the loosened rules in recent years, and the Cuban people are already directly benefiting.

I hadn't thought of it this way, but that's an interesting perspective. Will an influx of money into the hands of the 'working people' lead to a growing working middle class, who are likely to gain more education & economic clout, thus leading to desired social reforms? Does perpetuating poverty entrench rather than overthrow the perceived established tyranny?

This is a not a question unique to Cuba. North Korea comes to mind. Also something one of my favorite History teachers told the class once; that revolution tends to come when things have improved some, not what they're at their worst. People don't generally challenge the tyrant when they're at their weakest; they are emboldened by a measure of tolerance and empowerment first, then press forward. At least that was my understanding of his point.

Are countries best conquered from within? It's something I think about often regarding a 'leader' of yet another country...

Of course, 'importing' U.S. tourism will also mean importing some U.S. culture/ideology, which the natives will partake of. An Egyptian friend of mine many years ago surprised me talking about the prevalence of U.S. films back home. In the U.S., foreign films don't seem dominant in the mainstream, whereas I take it in some countries U.S.-produced media are prevalent.

Bottom Line: For potential dive tourists with an agenda for social change in Cuba, is the better policy stay out, or go in?

Richard.

P.S.: I can imagine some U.S. tourists 'accidentally' leaving DVD's, books, etc..., with subversive content.

 

[boulderjohn]

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

The title and announced topic of this thread is invitational to discussing politics to some degree. If the political situation is the reason you will or will not visit Cuba for diving, then that is a legitimate response; however, it is a very short hop from that to discussing the politics as a separate topic. ScubaBoard has a separate place to discuss politics for its own sake: the Pub. That is a very lightly moderated area where you are pretty much free to express your opinions on matters of politics, religion, or almost anything, really. Please remember that the purpose of this thread is to talk about whether you would be interested in heading to Cuba for diving. Please stick to that topic. If the political situation is part of your thinking, by all means say that, but please do not debate the pros and cons of those politics in here, for it will hijack the thread.

I invite people who want to talk about those issues to go to the Pub and start a thread with a title like "Changing American Policy and the Political Climate in Cuba." I'll bet it will be a very popular thread.

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[drrich2]

Politics aside, since we're talking about whether we'd go to Cuba, tell me why, in terms of diving, one goes to Cuba? And I don't mean that snarky; I'm not familiar with the Cuban dive scene.

1.) I get the impression some people think part of it will be more pristine than many Caribbean locations? Wonder if that's true, & for how long?

2.) Do we have reason to believe there're more big fish there? Or have the natives over-fished the place?

3.) Are the reefs especially lush?

4.) Is it a cheap place to go?

5.) Something else?

Knowing the reasons to go might help determine whether I, and many other people, would do so.

Richard.

 

[gkrane]

It is my understanding that the rest of the world has been free to dive Cuba all along. I have never heard any glowing reviews of the diving to even place it on my radar. From the link that was posted in the thread earlier it didnt seem cheaper than any other Carib destination.

 

[ontdiver]

Politics aside, since we're talking about whether we'd go to Cuba, tell me why, in terms of diving, one goes to Cuba? And I don't mean that snarky; I'm not familiar with the Cuban dive scene.

1.) I get the impression some people think part of it will be more pristine than many Caribbean locations? Wonder if that's true, & for how long?

2.) Do we have reason to believe there're more big fish there? Or have the natives over-fished the place?

3.) Are the reefs especially lush?

4.) Is it a cheap place to go?

5.) Something else?

Knowing the reasons to go might help determine whether I, and many other people, would do so.

Richard.

Unfortunately, much of the diving in Cuba is not that great. Most people (read Canadians) go to Cuba because the all inclusive packages - from 1 to 5 star - are relatively inexpensive. I have been diving there on and off for several years and while in Holguin this past June, the reefs looked more lunar that lush, and there were very few fish to be seen. All to say that in terms of value - notwithstanding a couple of good sites in the south - Cuba should probably not be viewed as a top dive destination, IMHO.