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Scott McWilliam
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Wrecked Wreck
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OP
Scott McWilliam
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??? sober up bender
OP
Scott McWilliam
Contributor
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- Reaction score
- 133
Mast Archaeology
Actually Dale had a good point that I did not address. We can actually tell quite a bit from the mast alone. Dendrochronology is the study of tree growth rings. If we had the funding and were doing archaeology core samples could be taken from the mast. This would allow us to look at the tree growth rings. There has been a lot of work done in this area. Due to growth patterns tree a sort of map has been made that dates back thousands of years in some parts of the world. It would be possible to identify when the tree that was used to make the mast lived. This may also give us an understanding of when the tree was cut for use as a mast. This would then give us a ball park understanding of when the ship was built.
Further chemical analysis could even give us an understanding of where the tree grew in the first place.
If you can enlarge my thumbnails you can get a lot of information about how it was used. You will note that it is stepped at one end where it once was fitted into the keelson. On the top end of the mast you see a lot of ferric oxide (rust). Often they would use wire rope or iron or steel clamps that would account for some of this. I think this mast is from a Schooner or Barque. It may have very well had a Marconi (triangular shaped) sail on the upper part of the mast. This would have used banded iron mast hoops that would slip up and down mast as it was lowered or raised. After sinking the sail would determinate and the hoops would fall to this area as well.
All of the best divers I know are at least point .02% sea dog by volume. If this is true you only need to let your mind sore for a minute. The purpose of archaeology is to learn about past life ways . .. Look at the mast and imagine being at the wheel on the stern deck with that mast carrying thousands of square feet of sail, oh what a feeling, oh what a rush.
The problem is the mast is now out of context, if is a lone piece of the story of that ship that is now lost from it.
Actually Dale had a good point that I did not address. We can actually tell quite a bit from the mast alone. Dendrochronology is the study of tree growth rings. If we had the funding and were doing archaeology core samples could be taken from the mast. This would allow us to look at the tree growth rings. There has been a lot of work done in this area. Due to growth patterns tree a sort of map has been made that dates back thousands of years in some parts of the world. It would be possible to identify when the tree that was used to make the mast lived. This may also give us an understanding of when the tree was cut for use as a mast. This would then give us a ball park understanding of when the ship was built.
Further chemical analysis could even give us an understanding of where the tree grew in the first place.
If you can enlarge my thumbnails you can get a lot of information about how it was used. You will note that it is stepped at one end where it once was fitted into the keelson. On the top end of the mast you see a lot of ferric oxide (rust). Often they would use wire rope or iron or steel clamps that would account for some of this. I think this mast is from a Schooner or Barque. It may have very well had a Marconi (triangular shaped) sail on the upper part of the mast. This would have used banded iron mast hoops that would slip up and down mast as it was lowered or raised. After sinking the sail would determinate and the hoops would fall to this area as well.
All of the best divers I know are at least point .02% sea dog by volume. If this is true you only need to let your mind sore for a minute. The purpose of archaeology is to learn about past life ways . .. Look at the mast and imagine being at the wheel on the stern deck with that mast carrying thousands of square feet of sail, oh what a feeling, oh what a rush.
The problem is the mast is now out of context, if is a lone piece of the story of that ship that is now lost from it.
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Yea the Dendrochronology would determine that the mast came from a forest, probably Canadian from the Georgin Bay Region or lower Ontario. Then the said tree was cut and put on a ship that sank. What's more important it the history behind the ship and if it's just a run of the mill two masted schooner that there is probably thousands of on the lake bottom that show the same design from 1850 through 1886. You might get lucky and find a carved name board or a rare engraved bell. Otherwise than that it is probably as historic as a train car which run neck and neck with the number of schooners built in the said timeframe.
What I'm trying to convey here is that not every shipwreck is historical no matter the age. When you designate something "historical" it gives someone a loophole to say it is protected. When something becomes protected, protection becomes an euphinsim for control as most Canadian divers now have to deal with. The same thing is happening over on our side of the lakes.
What I'm trying to convey here is that not every shipwreck is historical no matter the age. When you designate something "historical" it gives someone a loophole to say it is protected. When something becomes protected, protection becomes an euphinsim for control as most Canadian divers now have to deal with. The same thing is happening over on our side of the lakes.
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Scott McWilliam
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Well how would you tell them apart? How would you know what is significant and what's is not with out study? Do you rip it apart first and then find out it was significant? Who is the judge as to what is relevant and what is not? The most common, prosaic site tells its part of the story of the history and economic growth of a nation (or two) and what do you see as the big up side to allowing great dive sites to be destroyed because you or another party has decided that it is not significant?
Needless willful damage is not a spectator sort. How do you know what future generations will consider significant or not? In terms of sophistication this is right up there with the 1933 university of Berlin book burning by the NAZI's. I guess ISIS decided that a lot of archaeological sites in Syria were not significant so by your standards what they are doing must be ok?
Needless willful damage is not a spectator sort. How do you know what future generations will consider significant or not? In terms of sophistication this is right up there with the 1933 university of Berlin book burning by the NAZI's. I guess ISIS decided that a lot of archaeological sites in Syria were not significant so by your standards what they are doing must be ok?
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Although I sympathize with your concern, you have now officially descended into Godwin's territory. You just can't expect people to take you seriously when you Godwinize your own thread.
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Well no, actually, Godwin deals with comparisons I am referring to historical fact, big difference. As I understand it he is referring to the idea of using the NAZI line as a coat of black paint to paint the bad guys black (in just bout any argument). I am referring to historical fact and using this as an analogy for illustrative purposes, big difference. Again what is your down side? I am sure you can figure out how heart broken I would be if everyone on a scuba web site did not take me seriously? What does your post contribute to the issue at hand? In the same was you reacted to the word NAZI others might jump in and say that by using an ISIS reference I am anti muslem (not logical).
Godwin addresses a specific error in logic, an associative fallacy, this not at play here. While it is apparent that you would very likely be on the wearing shoes side when in Port Dover when in Port Dover, the digression is lost to many or most in this forum an avoids the issue . . . it is not relevant to the topic.
Godwin addresses a specific error in logic, an associative fallacy, this not at play here. While it is apparent that you would very likely be on the wearing shoes side when in Port Dover when in Port Dover, the digression is lost to many or most in this forum an avoids the issue . . . it is not relevant to the topic.
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I did some research on the wrecks off of Port Dover. In the area around long point there is a recorded 45 schooners that were wrecked in the vicinity of Long Point and one 2 master directly off of Port Dover (Susanna 136X30). Verify where the the trawler hit the mast and verify that there is a wreck there in the first place. We find masts, anchors, hatch covers, superstructure, and other wreckage miles from a known site. Once you have figured out what and where it came from then you can rant to me about the importance of a schooner.
Figuring that every year for 2-3 months depending on weather, I go out and hunt shipwrecks. I think I can say what is historic and what is a pile of boards. One year when I hunted Lake Erie for the first time, we found 3 virgin wrecks in one day all of them schooners. Not one of them was identified due to them being roughly the same length, size, and the number of known wrecks in the region. None of them had identifiable features that would have give them their identity. To this day they have not been identified and nothing of importance was found. Don't compare me to ISIS or the Nazis for my view on schooners, I guess that I would argue back that the Nazis burned run of the mill books that were easily reprinted after the war, and what ISIS is doing is a tragedy all around. If I recall are these Syrian sites are protected by the government and the world community, how is that working out for them?
Figuring that every year for 2-3 months depending on weather, I go out and hunt shipwrecks. I think I can say what is historic and what is a pile of boards. One year when I hunted Lake Erie for the first time, we found 3 virgin wrecks in one day all of them schooners. Not one of them was identified due to them being roughly the same length, size, and the number of known wrecks in the region. None of them had identifiable features that would have give them their identity. To this day they have not been identified and nothing of importance was found. Don't compare me to ISIS or the Nazis for my view on schooners, I guess that I would argue back that the Nazis burned run of the mill books that were easily reprinted after the war, and what ISIS is doing is a tragedy all around. If I recall are these Syrian sites are protected by the government and the world community, how is that working out for them?
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