Your thoughts about a UW HD Video Rig!

[ScubaBob92651]

Sounds like a lot has already been discussed here - so don't know if I have much to add (and apologize if this has already been covered.) I didn't see a link to your pics - so I'm not sure what your "favorite" subjects are. Do you shoot a lot of macro (like me)? If so, then you will want to make sure you can fit a diopter or two in whatever housing your decide on. Also, lights are must for macro. As far as wide angle, it also my understanding that the more expensive wide angle ports are the way to go. I have a "cheaper" fathom port that I've been pretty happy with (though I generally shoot close with a flat port).

Shooting classic wide angle shots take a lot of practice (as I'm sure you are aware from still photography), and I'm definately still learning. Used as a regular lens though, wide angle allows you to get close to your subject, and with decent ambient light that will result in sharper clips.

I've read abit on HDD v tape here and other sites, but as I've only used tape for the last 8 years (3 cameras) I don't have first hand experience for comparison. I think HDD would speed up the workflow. For me though, not much. I pull the footage from my tapes, and after that real time part of the workflow (plus maybe 10-15% for encoding to an intermediate codec if you choose to use one) never go back to tape unless I have a particular need (contest submission, archive etc).

Good luck on your selection and I'm sure you will enjoy shooting video. There is a lot to learn (I feel like I'm still very much a beginner after 8 years!) but there is also a lot of information out there available to help you on your way. Look forward to seeing your first videos..

 

[TheBigPhillyFish]

So, just out of curiosity, What is the difference between the HD hand camcorders like the HF11 / SR12 and the 3CCD units such as the XDR-FX1 or the XH-A1?

I would assume the manual controls are the biggest difference. I see from watching Ron's videos, and other video's on the net. The quality is better, and a lot less jitter in the picture. I know the 3CCD units are not for beginners, but I was just curios.

 

[ssidiv3r]

From what I understand (and I'm by now means an expert), the XH-A1 is keyed more towards professional shooting even though it's labeled as a "pro-sumer" camcorder. The HF11 is the hobby/amatuer style.

Personally, I have a Canon Vixia HV30 which is an HD camcorder, and I have been thinking of useing that for UW shooting. Although it uses miniDV, I prefer having a hard copy instead of trusting a hard disk drive on the camcorder. I haven't gone over the specs of the HF11 though

 

[robint]

So, just out of curiosity, What is the difference between the HD hand camcorders like the HF11 / SR12 and the 3CCD units such as the XDR-FX1 or the XH-A1?

I would assume the manual controls are the biggest difference. I see from watching Ron's videos, and other video's on the net. The quality is better, and a lot less jitter in the picture. I know the 3CCD units are not for beginners, but I was just curios.

less jitter in the picture comes from the person behind the camcorder! Ronscuba is a very experienced diver and has been shooting video for years. He started with an intro level camcorder and mastered the art, then moved up to the pro level.
Video, as well as still photo, are art forms that many can do but only a few can master....you really either get it or you don't. Much of the work of making a good video into a great one happens in the editing.

besides Ronscuba's videos, check out:
Roger Uzun Roger Uzun's videos on Vimeo
Mike Meagher Mike Meagher's videos on Vimeo
I can watch those 3 guys videos over and over and never get bored with the content and editing.

robin

 

[TheBigPhillyFish]

I know it is such an art. And those guys are just unbelievable. I also found this guy to Alex.Be, great HD Video.

I have always had this little dream or fantasy of doing video. In fact I have been debating going back to college and taking either Videography or computer animation and 3D. I just adore messing with this stuff.

Thats why I was wondering what the difference was in the camera's? The newest camera's are half the price of the Canon XH and the Sony FX. I know the learning curve is a lot higher on the 3CCD camera's. And I am willing to be patient with the longer learning curve, but will it make the difference? I know with proconsumer camera's I am looking at $6000.00 to $7000.00 for a good set-up. With say a HF-11 set-up I am looking at $2500.00 - $3500.00. So its half the price.

I know skills and editing play probably one of the biggest rolls in it. I am sure one of those guys can do excellent even on the lowest HD camera. I was just curious, to really see the difference between the two technologies.

And for all you guys making the HD movies, keep up the unbelievable work!

 

[diversteve]

Image quality is inherently better with a 3-chip camera. Less jitter is also partially helped by the fact that you're pushing a much larger housing through the water. I believe most of the new Sony's are 3CMOS, not 3CCD also.

Although you can get very good results with a 1CMOS camera, check out this work by Chuck Nicklin using a Sony HC1. Of course in his case, it's the operator, not the camera. Underwater Video Housing, Underwater Camera Housing, Light and Motion The last clip, HDV Indonesia is a good one.

 

[TheBigPhillyFish]

Well after a long weekend of reading reviews, tips, and HD educational video stuff. I have come to this long conclusion.

First, as an underwater video camera. There are a few things we need to consider, weight, size, macro ability, low light capability and white balance controls. These are probably the major factors for a diver taking video, that would effect your purchase decisions.

Another factor is recording media! if you have no plans of doing any serious editing, and just want your scuba vacations on video then your better off with the HDD or flash memory units. For higher quality video, and easier editing you will want a HDV tape set-up. From camcorderinfo.com, " The serious shooter will likely want to stay with HDV tape over the other formates as it continues to offer the highest video quality and editing options. Now with HDV tape my choice, this leaves you with the Canon HV30 ($575.00) or the Sony HC-9($ 757.00) (which by the way backscatter.com lists as the number one consumer video camera for underwater use). If your looking for an HDD camera, it seems that the Cannon HG-20 ($589.00) or the Sony SR-12 ($950.00), and be warned there is a big price difference there. If you want flash memory, then your looking at Canon HF-11 ($823.00) / HF-10($593.00) or the Sony HDR-CX12($636.00).

A few other notes! Canon seems to offer better manual controls and more frame rate choice over Sony. Sony seems to offer more LANC port support, which may offer more options for the camera. The Sony CX-7 seems to be the pick for the lightest and smallest high resolution package, if weight is the biggest factor. The Sony SR-12 unfortunately, the motion trailing of AVCHD will be a major deterant to the pro looking for a hand held solution for that inside a dinosaurs mouth shot (which I am assuming is macro detail).

Now all these cameras I have research are hand held HD camcorders. There are also a few choices for the pro-consumer HD video nut. These being the Canon XH-A1, XL-H1A and the Sony HDR-FX7, HDR-FX1000. As we know there quality is better then the smaller hand helds, I didn't do all the research on them. Since they go up in price and due to there size and weight. So if you want the pro-consumer HD video camera, your gonna have to read about them in more detail, sorry.

So, what I have I chosen? I believe I am feeling the likes of the Canon HV30 or the HF11 at this point. I like the HDV tape, which offers better video quality and more editing options without sacrificing weight and size. If at some I point I change my mind on that, and decide to go with flash memory, then the HF-11 is the way to go.

But keep in mind, there are two new models coming out within the next month or two that may change the way we look at this. The Canon HF-S10 and the Sony HDR-XR500V. By there specs the CMOS is bigger, which from my research will allow a big improvement over low light capability, which as divers, is very important for us. Canon has also added some features that are really striking the fancies of serious shooters, in terms of control. Also both video camera's have outstanding still picture capability, in fact so much that they will rival high end digital still camera's.

So hear is my top 5, less the two new additions due in March and April:

1. Canon HV-30
2. Canon HF-11
3. Sony HDR-SR12
4. Canon HG-20
5. Sony HDR-HC9

And this is only my opinion, and if I have made some mistake or error. Please feel free to correct me. I am just a newbie doing research. Also keep in mind, what works for me, may not work for you. You may not be willing to give up record time, for quality. So the best thing is to sit down and figure out what your priorities are for your video camera. Is it storage, weight, size, media type, quality, low light, etc. Base your purchase decision off of what you need, not what you wouldn't mind having.

 

[diversteve]

A couple of small corrections: The newer Canon's: HG-20, HF11, HF20, HF S10, HF S100 etc. all record at 24MBPS at their MXP settting. For most purposes, this is indistinguishable from HDV's (tape) 25MBPS recording. With a correspondingly larger increase in record time. Assuming you have enough computer power to edit native AVCHD. Going through an intermediate codec generally results in a decrease in quality.

Sony is the only one offering LANC/AV Remote Terminal <- called this on newer models - so they're the only camera that can be used with an electronic housing.

Now you get to have more fun comparing housings...

 

[robint]

another thing is to consider your housing choices before you purchase!
I know you were discussing Ikelite housings - all the Sony's have the LANC circuitry to use the mirror, good. Some of the Canon's can be used with the screen open inside the housing for viewing, good. Some of the Canon's must use the mirror on the outside but since no LANC, the image is backwards, bad! Be sure you know what you are getting before you buy.

I can't attest to any other housings as Ikelite is the only one I have used personally. I have watched others being used, and with the owner's permission held a few on trips with other divers and I can say there are pros and cons for ALL housings!

Be sure to get the one you can operate, carry around above water, and can afford to lose $$$ if something goes wrong. Get it and the camcorder insured for flood.

robin

 

[TheBigPhillyFish]

A couple of small corrections: The newer Canon's: HG-20, HF11, HF20, HF S10, HF S100 etc. all record at 24MBPS at their MXP settting. For most purposes, this is indistinguishable from HDV's (tape) 25MBPS recording. With a correspondingly larger increase in record time. Assuming you have enough computer power to edit native AVCHD. Going through an intermediate codec generally results in a decrease in quality.

But I thought the computer software for video editing in AVCHD, were having issues? I read a few places that they still needed time to catch up with the camera. The computer isn't a problem for me. I just need to make sure the software can edit AVCHD.

Sony is the only one offering LANC/AV Remote Terminal <- called this on newer models - so they're the only camera that can be used with an electronic housing.

I know there is some pretty decent opt-side accessories that make use of the LANC/AV terminal, such as motorized trip-pods, etc. As far as the housings are concerned, I think the LANC is used for electronic controls. I am still trying to figure out if thats a good thing or bad. One flood and your housing is done if its electronic. But they are probably easier to use.

Now you get to have more fun comparing housings...

Yeah I wasen't looking forward to this either. I wish they would just make a few model of camcorder and just a few different housings, to cut all this down. It looks like there is going to be 3 housings for the Canon (Ikelite, Equinox and Mansgrove) and for the Sony we have 10 housings (the major ones being Ikelite, Divebuddy EVO, Equinox, Gates, etc). So if I do go Sony, they I have a lot to look into.

another thing is to consider your housing choices before you purchase!
I know you were discussing Ikelite housings - all the Sony's have the LANC circuitry to use the mirror, good. Some of the Canon's can be used with the screen open inside the housing for viewing, good. Some of the Canon's must use the mirror on the outside but since no LANC, the image is backwards, bad! Be sure you know what you are getting before you buy.

That was the only thing I didn't like about Ikelite case, was the viewer issues. I see there mirror which I would only use with the Sony, is only held on by two sided tape. So I am on a dive and the mirror falls off, now what, you can't see the viewer? The Canon a few models allow you to see the viewer from the back, but at an odd angle.

I must admit the Eqinox units are starting to look very interesting. And they are the same price range as Ikelite. After that I would probably jump to Amphibico or Mangrove. The Gates are nice and sturdy, but just a little to overpriced for me, there basic housings are alright priced, but then add the port, and other stuff and your in the $4000.00 area, Just can't seem spending that kind of money on a $600.00 - $1,000.00 video camera. I have the prices and models for all the camera's I am looking at, so its just a matter of figuring out the right housing. It seems the big price difference includes white balance control, and exterior screen, oh yah and some have electronic controls. So there going to be a lot to consider. Wish me lluck