Zeagle ZX Octo Freeflowing

[riguerin]

Larry,

Thanks for your feedback. Attached is a pic of my octo attachment configuration. The mouthpiece IS oriented up and the purge valve down. The strap style octo holder that I use should not allow air to be trapped nor obstruct water from entering the mouthpiece once submerged. The few instances where this octo has started free flowing, it does so in a full out rush of air flowing from the mouthpiece. It does not automatically stop upon submersion but does so once I manually re-orient it with the mouthpiece pointing down (and sometimes give it a little slap).

It certainly occurred to me that my octo configuration may contribute to the problem. However, I'm not convinced that it's the sole root cause. I've used this basic configuration for years with other octos without incident (none had all the fancy adjustments that this one has ;-). I'd certainly welcome any suggestions on improving the octo attachment configuration, if you or others have any.


regards,
Rick


p.s. My 10yr old son loves his new Brigade that we purchased from you a couple months ago ... perfect fit, plenty of room to grow, Zeagle quality. He gets lots of compliments on it .... like, "Wow a real BC ... just smaller".

 

[mnj1233]

Larry,

Thanks for your feedback. Attached is a pic of my octo attachment configuration. The mouthpiece IS oriented up and the purge valve down. The strap style octo holder that I use should not allow air to be trapped nor obstruct water from entering the mouthpiece once submerged. The few instances where this octo has started free flowing, it does so in a full out rush of air flowing from the mouthpiece. It does not automatically stop upon submersion but does so once I manually re-orient it with the mouthpiece pointing down (and sometimes give it a little slap).

It certainly occurred to me that my octo configuration may contribute to the problem. However, I'm not convinced that it's the sole root cause. I've used this basic configuration for years with other octos without incident (none had all the fancy adjustments that this one has ;-). I'd certainly welcome any suggestions on improving the octo attachment configuration, if you or others have any.


regards,
Rick
p.s. My 10yr old son loves his new Brigade that we purchased from you a couple months ago ... perfect fit, plenty of room to grow, Zeagle quality. He gets lots of compliments on it .... like, "Wow a real BC ... just smaller".

There is nothing wrong with your octo. Mouthpeice up at entry is causing free-flow.

 

[scubatoys]

Yes... the picture convinces me as well. If you picture that lowering into the water, the water pressure will hit the diaphragm and start to depress it. Regulators are normally set up to start giving air at about 1 - 1.5 inches of water. And after you get them going, the venturi effect will give you a massive free flow until you put a finger over the mouthpiece to create enough back pressure to blow the diaphragm back to its resting position. I've seen many people beat their octos when this happens... It's not his fault... he must obey physics.

Now you can tighten the octo up to say 2.5 inches of water pressure, which would be enough so it doesn't do this, as then the water would get into the mouthpiece before that much pressure builds up... but it will be a little like sucking a thick shake through a small straw when you need to use it.

It's just this octo is a very good reg... just happens to have a yellow face cover, but it's a very easy breathing second stage - and thus the problem with this that you didn't have with others.

When octos are high like that on your body, every time you bob up and down at the surface, it can then empty, and start free flow again. I happen to wear mine much lower, so when I get in, I just point the mouthpiece down, then tilt it to slowly fill it with water, then it will not cause any problems for the rest of the dive.

So play with placement and technique, or have it tightened up a bit... but a good regulator is supposed to supply air easily... so tell this one he's very good... and don't slap him anymore.

 

[riguerin]

Larry,

Thanks for the feedback, again. In the picture, the BCD straps are let all the way out (that's how I stow my BCD). When the straps a cinched all the way down, the octo hangs at around navel level. It's fully submerged when buoying at the surface. Lowering it much further, would start to move out of the triangle suggested by certifying agencies.

Do you realy believe that this it the root cause ? I totally agree that this is a high performing regulator that is designed to be easy breathing (why I bought it in the first place). However, shouldn't the manual adjustments be able to compensate for the free flowing effect ? After all, what's the purpose of the dive/pre-dive switch ... wouldn't turning the resistance knob all the way in help offset attachment configuration deficiencies ?

Why doesn't my primary 2nd stage free flow at the surface ? I don't have lots of experience with this rig yet, but the dive/pre-dive switch seems to be very effective in preventing free flow on my primary 2nd stage ... even on long surface swims ?

Sincerely value your feedback,

Rick

 

[scubatoys]

The primary doesn't free flow as it's in your mouth... or hitting the water at a different angle. Give it a shot tightening it up a bit. Any shop can do it easily, or give me a call tomorrow and I can walk you through it. Then you just find yourself a happy balance between easy breathing and free flow susceptibility.

 

[riguerin]

Now you can tighten the octo up to say 2.5 inches of water pressure, which would be enough so it doesn't do this, as then the water would get into the mouthpiece before that much pressure builds up... but it will be a little like sucking a thick shake through a small straw when you need to use it.

I currently have the resistance knob turned all the way in AND have the switch in the pre-dive position. I'm already concerned that it would breath "like sucking a thick shake through a small straw". Personally, I've never had to breath off an octo in over 12+ years of diving (besides training exercises) ... however, I would be more concerned for my recently certified 10yr son (heaven forbid his life ever depended on my expensive "thick shake " breathing octo).

 

[riguerin]

There is nothing wrong with your octo. Mouthpeice up at entry is causing free-flow.

Can you please post a pic of a commercially available Zeagle octo mount cfg that doesn't orient the "mouthpiece up at entry" ? Alternately, please post a pic your own free flow Zeagle ZX octo mount cfg.

 

[Chad Carney]

Can you please post a pic of a commercially available Zeagle octo mount cfg that doesn't orient the "mouthpiece up at entry" ? Alternately, please post a pic your own free flow Zeagle ZX octo mount cfg.

What we know from your report is that there are inconsistencies with your regulator. If you have not switched your second stages yet, that would be very telling.

I just did a little experiment for your sake... I already knew the out come.

Here's my mounting photo. The ZX second stage is in this mouthpiece cup style second stage holder. I use this for my second primary on tech dives, and it's mounted a tad higher up than yours. (Note that the +/- venturi control is in full +, and the adjustable is not screwed down at all. Normally I would crank it down a couple turns.) I just tested two ZX second stages underwater with their MP up and fully purged them. Then slapped them in the water MP up and held them there. I can not make one of them go into venturi mode... the freeflow you describe.

Then I took them out of the MP holder and did the above again, still unscrewed all the way. (Of course it happens in +, it's supposed to do that, and it won't stop unless you invert it, block the air flow, or put it into -.) But in the - mode they will shut down the flow in about a second or two. They're supposed to do that too.

Then I took my super-tuned Flathead XP and did the same, fully unscrewed and set to -. It tries to keep the venturi going but after about 5 seconds it finally stops too.

This is because the air flow is blowing 100% into the diaphragm, opposite of the direction of the purge button.

The octo holder I used in the first example works better than yours because it has a lot of immediate back pressure, even when water has yet to seep into the second stage, which it eventually does. This one came from Marine Sports in FL. However yours will work better than no holder at all, and thousands of divers use that type too, with no problem.

Get your regulator checked out completely. Take the whole thing in to an authorized Zeagle dealer. Your regulator can't be working correctly unless your report is flawed. (That is a new ZX octo right? Not an old one with a new cover and ring?)

There is one other thing you can do for an octo, if you want it to be a little less sensitive. You can get a mouthpiece that has a smaller opening inside. Ours deliberately have no restriction, but many step the opening down a bit, which applies some backpressure, making venturi harder to occur.

Chad
Zeagle Rep

 

[riguerin]

I just thought I'd post a follow up to this post. Yes, the reg/octo is brand new and purchased from an authorized Zeagle dealer. Based on the recommendations here, I took the reg back to the LDS that I purchased it from .... explained the problem and had the Tech look it over. He didn't find anything wrong with it (IP was within specs) but did state that it was tuned to breath extremely easy. He de-tuned the octo very slightly ... $#IT, I can't even tell the difference (even at depth). I've put 4 dives on it since without further incident. Thanks all.


Chad,

I sincerely appreciate you going through the trouble to conduct an experiment and post your results and suggestions. This a great example of what makes this board such a great asset to the dive community. Thanks !

BTW ... I have one of those style octo holders, that you depict, which I used for years when I lived/dove in the West Palm Bch area. I switched to the lanyard style when I moved and started diving kelp here in So Cal. The reason I switched was that I got tired of continually having to re-insert the octo every time it got pulled up by kelp.

 

[Chad Carney]

BTW ... I have one of those style octo holders, that you depict, which I used for years when I lived/dove in the West Palm Bch area. I switched to the lanyard style when I moved and started diving kelp here in So Cal. The reason I switched was that I got tired of continually having to re-insert the octo every time it got pulled up by kelp.

Glad to hear the adjustment was all it took. It's good to know that everything is as it should be, IP pressure, etc.

I agree the style you have is a quicker to replace. I liked diving in the kelp in San Diego. I just wish it would grow someplace warmer!

Chad