Does PADI frown on BP/W over "regular" bc?

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They are 'tech specific' in as much as: 1) they are made for doubles, 2) you need an adaptor to use them with singles, 3) you have to attach a wing differently then you would if diving them with doubles.


Wow. . . just wow . . .

1) no, they're not. My back plate doesn't come with any adaptors on it. IF I want doubles I put on one type, if I want singles I put on anohter. It's not made for doubles at the exclusion of singles, nor is it made for singles at the exclusion of doubles. It is made to be modular and flexible, accomodating both singles and doubles equally well.

2) you need an adaptor to use them with doubles as well. Really a BP and Wing without cam bands or doubles straps or something to hold tanks on isn't going to be used recreationally. Though I suppose you could teach side mounted OW courses :)

3) I would hope so. But that hardly means that they are "made for doubles" or tech specific.
 
Wow. . . just wow . . .

1) no, they're not. My back plate doesn't come with any adaptors on it. IF I want doubles I put on one type, if I want singles I put on anohter. It's not made for doubles at the exclusion of singles, nor is it made for singles at the exclusion of doubles. It is made to be modular and flexible, accomodating both singles and doubles equally well.

2) you need an adaptor to use them with doubles as well. Really a BP and Wing without cam bands or doubles straps or something to hold tanks on isn't going to be used recreationally. Though I suppose you could teach side mounted OW courses :)

3) I would hope so. But that hardly means that they are "made for doubles" or tech specific.


Cave Bum is correct to a point.

Backplates and wings were originally developed as a means to mount doubles, and a means to provide buoyancy when diving doubles. At the time there were a number of commercial solutions for singles. Shortcomings of the available harnesses for doubles, and the "belly bags" used for buoyancy were impetus for the development of the Backplate and wing.

This basic design has been adapted for use with singles. Single Tank Adapters, and later Direct Mount designs grew out of the original BP&W for doubles.

It is currently true that one can quite successfully use a BP&W for singles without any Adapters, if the wing and plate are designed to do so.

Tobin
 
Wow, I go to bed, wake up, and there are five pages on this...

I didn't mean to start a war!....

If you like this just start a thread with "spare air" in the title!
 
I was going to bed but let me answer that. There was a time I would have just swam it--lol--yes--I have done open ocean long distance swimming races--little old me, yep. However, 10 miles is a fer piece even for Nemrod so if I was in my Oxy Mach V and gave up on swimming (on my back as I always do) I would inflate the wing about 2/3, ditch my belt, and then take my sausage and inflate it and put it around my front and back under my arms, pop my mask on my forehead and hope for somebody to find me before I drifted off to Cuba. On the other hand, I always wanted to dive Cuba.

N

That's what I thought.
 
That's what I thought.


On a number of occasions while beach diving from various California locations I made some fairly long swims using the SeaTec wing. I usually swim on my back but for better navigation through the kelp while on the surface or in other areas to look out for boat traffic I would partially inflate the wing and then use it like a belly board--as swimmers do when lap swimming. Works good. N
 
I think that some instructor might not be familiar with back plate with wings, and might not support its use in their class. A diver might be overweighted with a SS backplate and a weight belt, and it might be difficult to perform the required skills with such a rig. The skills in question include removal and replacement of weight belt on the surface and in water, and removal and replacement of BCD on the surface and in the water.

A pool dive with an 8 lb ss back plate, plus a required weight belt, plus a crotch strap ... Might be an ordeal for a new diver to accomplish. I find these set up, if securely adjusted, difficult to remove and don under and above water. Second, the exercise of removing and donning the weight belt might be difficult.

If the instructor is not familiar with the rig, and the student is not familiar with the rig, and the student struggled, who is going to help him/her? Now, if the student was wearing a heavy rig, and little weight on his weight belt, the gear removal might be a little dangerous with a wetsuit on. He might not be able to hang on, and let go of the reg and rig, and you might have an emboli occurring.

I can imagine that a lightweight bp/w rig with enough weight on a weight belt would be acceptable in an OW class... But one has to advice the student of the need to have good dexterity to put on and remove such a BC, and perhaps he should have it adjusted quite loose for such an exercise (at first).
 
I think that some instructor might not be familiar with back plate with wings, and might not support its use in their class. A diver might be overweighted with a SS backplate and a weight belt, and it might be difficult to perform the required skills with such a rig. The skills in question include removal and replacement of weight belt on the surface and in water, and removal and replacement of BCD on the surface and in the water.

A pool dive with an 8 lb ss back plate, plus a required weight belt, plus a crotch strap ... Might be an ordeal for a new diver to accomplish. I find these set up, if securely adjusted, difficult to remove and don under and above water. Second, the exercise of removing and donning the weight belt might be difficult.

If the instructor is not familiar with the rig, and the student is not familiar with the rig, and the student struggled, who is going to help him/her? Now, if the student was wearing a heavy rig, and little weight on his weight belt, the gear removal might be a little dangerous with a wetsuit on. He might not be able to hang on, and let go of the reg and rig, and you might have an emboli occurring.

I can imagine that a lightweight bp/w rig with enough weight on a weight belt would be acceptable in an OW class... But one has to advice the student of the need to have good dexterity to put on and remove such a BC, and perhaps he should have it adjusted quite loose for such an exercise (at first).

Dude, I'm really not trying to be mean or anything, but this post really doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
 
PADI is not the only way to get certified. There are other agencies.

If your PADI instructor won't teach you if you wear a BP/W -- then dump the instructor.

Although a BP/W is not contrary to anything that PADI teaches, many people who wear a BP/W have gear configurations that are inconsistent with much of PADI's teachings.

I get frustrated with PADI's methods, but I still take courses from them.
 
I didn't really read through the entire thread, admittedly, but felt compelled to respond.

I think that some instructor might not be familiar with back plate with wings, and might not support its use in their class. A diver might be overweighted with a SS backplate and a weight belt, and it might be difficult to perform the required skills with such a rig. The skills in question include removal and replacement of weight belt on the surface and in water, and removal and replacement of BCD on the surface and in the water.

A pool dive with an 8 lb ss back plate, plus a required weight belt, plus a crotch strap ... Might be an ordeal for a new diver to accomplish. I find these set up, if securely adjusted, difficult to remove and don under and above water. Second, the exercise of removing and donning the weight belt might be difficult.

If the instructor is not familiar with the rig, and the student is not familiar with the rig, and the student struggled, who is going to help him/her? Now, if the student was wearing a heavy rig, and little weight on his weight belt, the gear removal might be a little dangerous with a wetsuit on. He might not be able to hang on, and let go of the reg and rig, and you might have an emboli occurring.

I can imagine that a lightweight bp/w rig with enough weight on a weight belt would be acceptable in an OW class... But one has to advice the student of the need to have good dexterity to put on and remove such a BC, and perhaps he should have it adjusted quite loose for such an exercise (at first).


You bring up some valid points - some instructors have not the faintest clue about BP/Ws. But whose fault is that? I would certainly hope that by the time you've reached the instructor level, you'd have the motivation and forethought to take some initiative and figure out how a BP/W functions, with or without help. In all honesty, if an instructor is too much of a tight-ass to learn about them, or whatever the reason, perhaps a better hobby for that instructor would be coloring with crayons (in between the lines please!!).

Setting up a BP/W and adjusting for correct weighting obviously needs to be taught, I COMPLETELY agree with you. I for one am surprised it's not taught in the padi curriculum (but at the same time, I really am not surprised). Nobody is so stupid that they can't understand it - so whats the problem here, really? I think it has more to do with money than it does anything else.


The dive shop I am a DMC at has instituted a policy of encouraging divers to consider a BP/W setup, even for first-time divers - which I was surprised to hear.

BP/W BCDs are superior to the vest style in so many ways and once you recognize all the advantages it becomes very hard to justify selling vest style BCDs to ANYONE with rare exceptions.

I for one, used to avoid hanging out on the shop floor at a specific shop because suggesting to customers, especially OW customers, that a BP/W serves as an excellent platform for ones diving - recreational or otherwise, always led to problems. I've had other divemasters, and even instructors interrupt my advice giving/sales with customers on the shop floor, mid sentence, to "correct" me about the validity of BP/W for recreational diving.

BP/W are not scary looking - but they look uncomfortable, when in fact, they are often more comfortable than some "recreational" vests. I really see that as being the only major problem to over-come from a sales point of view. And it's a fairly trivial problem at that.


What it comes down to is some LDS' being afraid of change, and PADI and other major players hand holding and babysitting these same shops.

"awww, it's okay lds, BP/Ws are scary and dangerous. There there. sell these generic vest style BCDs instead. no tears. no tears"
 
First off I dive BP/W in OpenH2O but what it seems like here is that some people think if an instructor doesn't like the BP/W then they don't know what they are doing or something to that effect. Its their decision what they dive and that in itself doesn't make them a bad instructor. I find it easier to start students in a traditional BC for the OpenH2O course cause if they don't want to buy everything at the starty of their experience I can understand that. I don't have access to multiple BP/Ws and it is easier to get in and out of a BC. There are time limits on a course like it or not. Rant over for now.
 
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