Does PADI frown on BP/W over "regular" bc?

[RayJayJr]

Emperical proof of what? There is not emperical proof that the BP/W is a superior "technology" if that is where you'er going with this. Some prefer it, some don't. I'm not going to knock an instructor for not prefering it.

Eperical proof that it is a superior techology - absolutely. This might seem counter to what you'd think intially - and I myself didn't believe it at first either. The data is there if you look for it closely.

The people taking this activity the distance, the ones on the forefront of it all are consistantly diving some variation of BP/W technology. Sure there are tec-rec guys diving rangers and so-on, but more often than not its BP/W.

Why is GUE pushing BP/W technology so hard for recreational divers? Yes they have a fiscal interest in it - that's fair - but I think people like Jared Jablonski also have a vested interest in people diving safely and more effectively.

This whole concept goes way beyond DIR - I myself, while facinated by it, do not yet subscribe completely to the concept - but I am not aware of a single circumstance, barring perhaps an extreme rarity, that makes 'traditional' (and I truely hesitate to call them that) BCDs preferrable to BP/W.

That couldn't be more wrong. I'm sure there is a small amount of conspiracy, but more than anything the jacket is just cheaper, more widely available and used at every dive spot in the world. That's why it is the BC most classes use.

You're absolutely correct - the jacket is very much cheaper. We have to keep in mind the demand curve, volume of production, and so on. Cordura isn't even remotely cheap - but the vests are cheaper? why? Because they look comfortable, and maybe a little less intimidating that a metal plate, so lots of people buy them (re: most rec divers) and so per-unit cost is low.

Perhaps that is reading a bit deep but you get the idea. There's no conspiracy. Everyone knows PADI has a distinct and crystal clear preference towards the vest, and it's because of money.

I'm sure there are some LDS out there that do this, but I doubt that is the primary reason.

In my experience travelling, it seems that many shop owners, granted intelligent and dedicated people, lack business management skills. They are so focused on micro-managing the shop, worrying and counting the dollars, that they are sometimes oblivious to the dynamic of reality of diving today. Things change. The BP/W tech is back - its better, and it's here to stay. Some shops are afraid of this it seems.

Theres the risk of alienating certain clientele, and the fact that PADI shows clear preference. I think both affect how a shop operates - a challenging situation no doubt.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I didn't see it mentioned yet in the thread but there are some good reasons that you don't see many shops that carry BP/wing.

It just isn't what the major manufacturers are pushing. If you want to sell enough volume to hang onto an aqualung of scubapro dealership you have to sell what they sell.

In addition, there are too many BP/wing manufacturers who retail the stuff themselves. The shop (dealer) has to compete with the manufacturer for retail sales.

There is some markup in a halcyon or diverite and I don't know what the current prices are but you can get a Fret T plate a LOT cheaper directly from Fred. When I talked with him a few years back about carrying his plates in my store, I think he was going to give me about $5 off his retail price. Who wants to sell a plate for a $5 markup? There are lots of guys cranking out plates in their garage and selling them for $80.


A shop just isn't going to make as much money selling them.

 

[fisherdvm]

In all honesty, even if I favored a bp/w set up as an instructor, how would I advise a student in such a way that make it economical for a student, AND at the same time, make it a financial benefit for the shop?

If they traveled, and pack up their gear, a plastic/aluminum plate. If not, a steel plate. To ease donning and undonning for their task, a harness with shoulder buckles, but DIR frowns on that! Then, DIR prefers DIN, and then, they need a yoke adapter, just in case. Then, how are they going to depth gauge, time piece, compass? Can't put it on the console, as it DIR doesn't like it?

Then, what wing to buy? Well, if they are going to look techquist, they are absolutely going to do double, right? Then a large wing would do? Or a small wing, plus a single tank adapter, then upgrade later?

New divers love to collect stuff, then they need pockets! Then, the weight integrated pockets do fine.

Shops like student to buy the same gears instructors and their DM use. Now, you've got a decision to make. Would you want an instructor or DM to point student toward gears so expensive, they might chose to shop on the internet, or delay purchasing it?

In my opinion, I would rather point a student toward a jacket BC with weight pockets stratigically in the back, and weight integration... Teach them to get better trim with such a rig, and later, they can migrate to a wing/bp with understanding of weight issue.

I've seen a diver with a very tech looking bp/w diving in a very odd way. He used a plastic plate
for traveling light, and had a large wing. Somehow, his trim looked terrible under the water with a weight belt. I don't think large wings are very forgiving and easy to trim... But most BC jackets center the bouancy over the lower back, and trim a weight belt nicely (thats why they have the bladder extend around your belly, not for "safety reason" as a life jacket, but to counter the weight of the belt). A few wings do this purposely, by having the bottoms wider, but some tech people frowns on it.

OW classes are so condensed on time now a day, I can't see an instructor fidgeting with a student's new set up, messing around with trim weights, etc... I can see a new student pumping huge amount of air in and dumping it out and suffocating when they overinflate their multipurpose 50 lb wing! They are less likely to look like a yoyo when they use a small wing or a jacket style (20 to 25 lb of lift).

Why can't we keep it simple for the students and the instructor? BP/W are nice to dive with, but they are more complicated and expensive than many people realize. By the time you've discussed wings, plate, and the DIR philosophy to them, how many will continue diving??

 

[seaducer]

Just because you dive a BP/W doesn't make you DIR. I know lot's of folks who dive one and have all their intruments on a console, use k valves, etc. You may have to dive a BP/W to be DIR, but you don't have to be DIR to dive a BP/W.

 

[MikeFerrara]

To ease donning and undonning for their task, a harness with shoulder buckles, but DIR frowns on that!

You can get in and out of it just fine without buckles but what does DIR have to do with it?

Then, DIR prefers DIN, and then, they need a yoke adapter, just in case.

I prefer DIN too but, again, what does DIR have to do with it and what does the valve have to do with using a BP/wing?

Then, how are they going to depth gauge, time piece, compass? Can't put it on the console, as it DIR doesn't like it?

Again with the DIR. Forget DIR, LOL but, I clip the SPG to my left hip d-ring and use wrist mounted bottom timer/computer and compass.

Then, what wing to buy? Well, if they are going to look techquist, they are absolutely going to do double, right? Then a large wing would do? Or a small wing, plus a single tank adapter, then upgrade later?

If they're diving single tank why not one of the nice little single tank wings? You don't need an adapter either with some wings.

New divers love to collect stuff, then they need pockets! Then, the weight integrated pockets do fine.

Do they? All the stuff I collected when I was a new diver and didn't know any better is laying all over the house and garage unused.

Shops like student to buy the same gears instructors and their DM use. Now, you've got a decision to make. Would you want an instructor or DM to point student toward gears so expensive, they might chose to shop on the internet, or delay purchasing it?

What makes you say that a bp/w is so expensive? Besides, I know that if I had started with that I would have saved a fortune...not good for the shop though, huh?

In my opinion, I would rather point a student toward a jacket BC with weight pockets stratigically in the back, and weight integration... Teach them to get better trim with such a rig, and later, they can migrate to a wing/bp with understanding of weight issue.

I've seen a diver with a very tech looking bp/w diving in a very odd way. He used a plastic plate
for traveling light, and had a large wing. Somehow, his trim looked terrible under the water with a weight belt. I don't think large wings are very forgiving and easy to trim... But most BC jackets center the bouancy over the lower back, and trim a weight belt nicely (thats why they have the bladder extend around your belly, not for "safety reason" as a life jacket, but to counter the weight of the belt). A few wings do this purposely, by having the bottoms wider, but some tech people frowns on it.

You can certainly get trimmed with a jacket but you sure couldn't tell by looking around at how people are diving. LOL

OW classes are so condensed on time now a day, I can't see an instructor fidgeting with a student's new set up, messing around with trim weights, etc...

Generally, there is less messing with trim weights with a bp but instructors SHOULD be doing this anyway!

It's a lousy shame that they teach the class in a day and send the student off without a clue about trim.

I can see a new student pumping huge amount of air in and dumping it out and suffocating when they overinflate their multipurpose 50 lb wing!

Why on earth would they be using a 50 pound wing?

They are less likely to look like a yoyo when they use a small wing or a jacket style (20 to 25 lb of lift).

Good heavens man, show me a class where the students don't look like yoyo's. LOL remember the class is taught in a day?

Why can't we keep it simple for the students and the instructor?

It's hard to get any simpler than a plate and harness.

BP/W are nice to dive with, but they are more complicated and expensive than many people realize.

Nonsense

By the time you've discussed wings, plate, and the DIR philosophy to them, how many will continue diving??

No need to discuss DIR. You seem to be really stuck on DIR. But, if we were teaching trim and spending some time getting students set up well with SIMPLE gear like a bp/wing, I think lots more would keep diving.

Come on, we certify them in a couple of days, leave out the most important stuff and send them out to strugle on their own. No wonder divers don't stay with it.

 

[Nick_W]

Eperical proof that it is a superior techology - absolutely. This might seem counter to what you'd think intially - and I myself didn't believe it at first either. The data is there if you look for it closely.

The people taking this activity the distance, the ones on the forefront of it all are consistantly diving some variation of BP/W technology. Sure there are tec-rec guys diving rangers and so-on, but more often than not its BP/W.

Why is GUE pushing BP/W technology so hard for recreational divers? Yes they have a fiscal interest in it - that's fair - but I think people like Jared Jablonski also have a vested interest in people diving safely and more effectively.

This whole concept goes way beyond DIR - I myself, while facinated by it, do not yet subscribe completely to the concept - but I am not aware of a single circumstance, barring perhaps an extreme rarity, that makes 'traditional' (and I truely hesitate to call them that) BCDs preferrable to BP/W.

Sorry, the "that guy is doing it so it must be the best" argument doesn't work on me.

Listen, I've got no issues with the BP/W, I think I've made that clear. But all I ever tell my students is whatever works best for them is the right gear. I like this, this guy might like that, take a look at it, try it out, if you like it, its right.

And honestly, mentioning the name Jared Jablonski just makes me want to throw my BP/W into a wood chipper.

In all honesty, even if I favored a bp/w set up as an instructor, how would I advise a student in such a way that make it economical for a student, AND at the same time, make it a financial benefit for the shop?

Mike's done a good job with the rest, so I'll just adress this. A BP/W can easily be cheaper than a BC. When I said the jacket BC was cheaper I was talking about the cheap ones instructors will buy plus the bulk discount an instructor can usually get. It wouldn't be unheard of for an instructor to get some jackets for less than a hundred bucks a pop.

But for a decent jacket without a discount, you could easily pay more than you would for a decent BP/W. That's what makes it economical for the student.

As for the shop. Who cares? I don't work for a shop so I couldn't possibly care less about them. And if I did, I'm not the type who tries to make money by selling someone crap to start with so they'll have to come back and buy more.

 

[Ron Brandt]

I ask this because I am interested in getting certified in the spring, and after doing a ton of research, I have come to the conclusion that a BP/W makes more sense. It just looks more comfortable than being wrapped up in a blanket of a jacket style BC. I also like the portability of it over the bulky Jacket styles...

I have spoken to several places here locally that do classes and certifications, and when asking about gear, I bring up a BP/W and every time I have been told that they either don't carry them, or don't recommend them for those new to diving, because of their "complexity." I was shocked, because as far as I can tell, they look a hell of a lot more simple than having all that unnecessary material wrapped around you...

So any divers out there start on a BP/W over a jacket style? Any cert. agencies that this is more in tune with??

thanks,

MN_Diver.

No,they don't and have even been shown in OWD manuals.....the only thing they ask are that the instructor and student be geared the same way.

Ron

 

[Underwater Ogre]

Finally...a short answer.

 

[dkatchalov]

Yet another thread becomes a "BP/W vs. poodle jacket" debate.

FWIW, I setup my bp/w in less than 3 hours. Plus a couple of dives to tune it just right. The price was less than a mid-range poodle jacket. Mind you, I didn't get a "budget" wing either. I could have gotten a single-tank DR wing for less than my Oxycheq. So if I really wanted to, I could have had the whole thing even cheaper.

I don't get what's so complicated about a bp/w. If anything, all the bells and whistles on modern BCs, it will take an instructor time to figure out where all the dump valves are, ditchable weights, etc. on a student's BC. Not to mention where all the "elevator levers" are, etc, etc!

 

[Nick_W]

Yet another thread becomes a "BP/W vs. poodle jacket" debate.

FWIW, I setup my bp/w in less than 3 hours. Plus a couple of dives to tune it just right. The price was less than a mid-range poodle jacket. Mind you, I didn't get a "budget" wing either. I could have gotten a single-tank DR wing for less than my Oxycheq. So if I really wanted to, I could have had the whole thing even cheaper.

I don't get what's so complicated about a bp/w. If anything, all the bells and whistles on modern BCs, it will take an instructor time to figure out where all the dump valves are, ditchable weights, etc. on a student's BC. Not to mention where all the "elevator levers" are, etc, etc!

I've been defending BP/Ws this entire thread, but let me step to the other side for a minute and say that any time someone calls it a "poodle jacket" I automatically write them off as someone who just likes to think they're cool and talk down to the vactation divers. Not saying that's what you are, I just hate that term.

Also, please don't assume that every jacket style BC out there has all that useless junk on it. There are quite a few that are just nice BCs. I've never seen dump valves anywhere out of the ordinary on a BC, so I don't know what that's all about. I've seen BP/W systems with weights that weren't just a weight belt. And I've never seen a BC with an elevator lever. I know they're out there, but again, its pretty assinine to use that as an example of what you don't like about jackets when those BCs are the exception rather than the rule.