BP/W: I officially don't get it

[djanni]

The problem with your argument is that 90% of the BP/W sales on ebay are for new gear, not people who are "dumping" them. Those would be the hundreds and hundreds of used jacket BCs you see for sale.

A lot of dealers sell BP/Ws on ebay at least in part because few LDSs carry them, as they are not nearly as integrated into the retail distribution network as are BCs from the big consumer dive gear companies like scubapro and aqualung.

Wasn't my argument really. I was just playing devils advocate with someone elses argument. Just shows to go you, that one can bias data in multiple directions. Yet I will add, the gear doesn't have to used to get dumped and ebay is a good place to try to dump it.

 

[cool_hardware52]

Wasn't my argument really. I was just playing devils advocate with someone elses argument. Just shows to go you, that one can bias data in multiple directions. Yet I will add, the gear doesn't have to used to get dumped and ebay is a good place to try to dump it.

Don,

Arguments about the relative fitness of any diver gear based on the numbers sold, of the percentages seen on the local charter, or how many are for sale on ebay all miss the point.

Factors such as availability, and the fact that most LDS's don't know much about BP&W's are far more influential than the actual fitness of the two approaches.

We know it's your life's work to convince SB that BP&W's are not the answer, but the fact remains that the vast majority of divers who have the opportunity to try a BP&W continue to use them, and prefer them over conventional BC's.

What "facts" to I have to support this bold claim? The only type of BC I sell is BP&W's and our return rate is effectively zero.

Tobin

 

[djanni]

Don,

Arguments about the relative fitness of any diver gear based on the numbers sold, of the percentages seen on the local charter, or how many are for sale on ebay all miss the point.

Factors such as availability, and the fact that most LDS's don't know much about BP&W's are far more influential than the actual fitness of the two approaches.

We know it's your life's work to convince SB that BP&W's are not the answer, but the fact remains that the vast majority of divers who have the opportunity to try a BP&W continue to use them, and prefer them over conventional BC's.

What "facts" to I have to support this bold claim? The only type of BC I sell is BP&W's and our return rate is effectively zero.

Tobin

And your life's work is??? I do like to put a little bit of balance against all the hyperbole regarding bp/w's. Yes, I know that's in direct conflict with your life's work so your attitude toward me is understood.

You're a great guy as long as people bow down to you and see things the way you see them. Funny thing is, if I were to ever buy a bp/w it would probably be one of yours. I just don't need one.

Oh, btw - Since you addressed your post to me maybe I should add that it wasn't my argument.

 

[peterbj7]

Don,

Arguments about the relative fitness of any diver gear based on the numbers sold, of the percentages seen on the local charter, or how many are for sale on ebay all miss the point.

Factors such as availability, and the fact that most LDS's don't know much about BP&W's are far more influential than the actual fitness of the two approaches.

We know it's your life's work to convince SB that BP&W's are not the answer, but the fact remains that the vast majority of divers who have the opportunity to try a BP&W continue to use them, and prefer them over conventional BC's.

What "facts" to I have to support this bold claim? The only type of BC I sell is BP&W's and our return rate is effectively zero.

Tobin

Whilst I don't necessarily disagree with your conclusion, your reasoning is statistically false. Firstly, you're only seeing people who are likely to buy such equipment, already a small minority of the total population buying gear. Secondly, once people have made such a purchase they are likely to try to make it work, rather than admit publicly that they got it wrong. And thirdly, those people who do decide to get rid of it are unlikely to return to you for fear of looking foolish or possibly subjecting themselves to persuasion they don't want. No, they'll dispose of it elsewhere and you may well never know that they did so.

In case you (also) find it convenient to pigeon-hole me as someone who is anti backplates (I will not use the invalid term BP/W), let me point out that I am a dealer who has sold two such kits in the last couple of weeks. I've also sold several conventional BCs in that time. I have four gear setups of my own ready to be dived - a CCR with its own wing (and I suppose a sort of backplate), a manifolded twinset with SS backplate, harness and wing, another manifolded twinset with soft harness and wing but no backplate (which I generally prefer), and a straightforward recreational BC with single tank.

 

[cool_hardware52]

And your life's work is???

That's hardly a state secret. I design and build dive gear. My goal is to provide good gear at a good value, and sell enough to be able to keep doing so.

I do like put a little bit of balance against all the hyperbole regarding bp/w's. Yes, I know that's in direct conflict with your life's work so your attitude toward me is understood.

I don't need to rely on hyperbole to sell BP&W's, so far the simple truth seems to be working well enough.

Instead of play devils advocate why not focus on what you see as the benefits of the conventional BC. Stay positive.

You're a great guy as long as people bow down to you and see things the way you see them. Funny thing is, if I were to ever buy a bp/w it would probably be one of yours. I just don't need one.

Show me where I have ONCE suggested that a BP&W is the "one true way"

I'm pretty careful to promote the advantages of BP&W's without denigrating others choices.

Tobin

 

[djanni]

That's hardly a state secret. I design and build dive gear. My goal is to provide good gear at a good value, and sell enough to be able to keep doing so.

I don't need to rely on hyperbole to sell BP&W's, so far the simple truth seems to be working well enough.

Instead of play devils advocate why not focus on what you see as the benefits of the conventional BC. Stay positive.

Show me where I have ONCE suggested that a BP&W is the "one true way"

I'm pretty careful to promote the advantages of BP&W's without denigrating others choices.

Tobin

We all know what your life's work is. Asking the question was rhetorical and you knew that.

Being a salesman myself I can tell you I have no doubt my products and services are THE "one true way." You're a salesman too and to feel that way is a good thing. To not feel that way about your products is when things start to fall apart. Good products and good value... I may need to rethink a purchase decision now because I want a GREAT product and a good value. Just kidding. I commend you for trying to be humble.

 

[cool_hardware52]

Whilst I don't necessarily disagree with your conclusion, your reasoning is statistically false. Firstly, you're only seeing people who are likely to buy such equipment, already a small minority of the total population buying gear. Secondly, once people have made such a purchase they are likely to try to make it work, rather than admit publicly that they got it wrong. And thirdly, those people who do decide to get rid of it are unlikely to return to you for fear of looking foolish or possibly subjecting themselves to persuasion they don't want. No, they'll dispose of it elsewhere and you may well never know that they did so.

So... I'm supposed to believe that people I've personally helped pick out a BP&W, and who I often help with followup questions after they receive their gear routinely slink out to the dumpster in the dark of night to avoid to having me know they can't stand their new gear?


Today's consumer is vocal. Reports of dissatisfaction with all sorts of gear is a common occurrence on SB, no reason to expect a new BP&W buyer to be any different. Unhappy consumers are MORE vocal than satisfied ones.

The tortured lengths some go to try and explain away the growing popularity of BP&W's is simply amazing.

Apparently there is a conspiracy to sell BP&W's using hyperbolic propaganda, and the poor hoodwinked buyers are so cowed by the arbiters of fashion, aka the BP&W fanatics, that they are all digging holes in their back yards to secretly bury their BP&W so they won't have to face the wrath of the true believers.

If I didn't read it here I don't think I could make this stuff up.

Tobin

 

[peterbj7]

Being a salesman myself I can tell you I have no doubt my products and services are THE "one true way." You're a salesman too and to feel that way is a good thing. To not feel that way about your products is when things start to fall apart. Yet I commend you for trying to be humble.

I can't disagree with this more. A shop I respect is one that understands what I need (not necessarily what I asked for) and is happy to send me to a competitor if that way I'll get a better result. I've always behaved that way myself, and though it might cost me the odd sale that I know might have become problemmatical as it wasn't really what the customer needed, in the long run the reputation I get for integrity way outweighs that.

Incidentally, Mrs Thatcher's first name is Margaret. "Margret" is not a valid name in English.

 

[peterbj7]

So... I'm supposed to believe that people I've personally helped pick out a BP&W, and who I often help with followup questions after they receive their gear routinely slink out to the dumpster in the dark of night to avoid to having me know they can't stand their new gear?


Today's consumer is vocal. Reports of dissatisfaction with all sorts of gear is a common occurrence on SB, no reason to expect a new BP&W buyer to be any different. Unhappy consumers are MORE vocal than satisfied ones.

The tortured lengths some go to try and explain away the growing popularity of BP&W's is simply amazing.

Apparently there is a conspiracy to sell BP&W's using hyperbolic propaganda, and the poor hoodwinked buyers are so cowed by the arbiters of fashion, aka the BP&W fanatics, that they are all digging holes in their back yards to secretly bury their BP&W so they won't have to face the wrath of the true believers.

If I didn't read it here I don't think I could make this stuff up.

Tobin

You're getting rather defensive. Did you actually read what I wrote?

 

[djanni]

I can't disagree with this more. A shop I respect is one that understands what I need (not necessarily what I asked for) and is happy to send me to a competitor if that way I'll get a better result. I've always behaved that way myself, and though it might cost me the odd sale that I know might have become problemmatical as it wasn't really what the customer needed, in the long run the reputation I get for integrity way outweighs that.

Incidentally, Mrs Thatcher's first name is Margaret. "Margret" is not a valid name in English.

Margaret - That's pretty funny because I copied that right off some site in the UK. Thanks for pointing it out though. I'll correct it.

As to the other, I'm talking about the products and solutions that I have. Of course, if one doesn't have a good solution he should counsel the client to look at something else. I have to do that pretty often. I am a disciple of counselor selling. How else does one build trust and without trust one isn't going to sell very much.

I'm just fortunate to have products/services/solutions that are very modern, highly sophisticated, robust and scalable. We are the 800 lb gorilla in our industry and highly respected for our feature set, innovation and quality. We're also the highest priced product and usually 50% to 100% over the competition. BTW - it's software based ERP systems.

I'm also a true believer that nothing else comes close.

EDIT: Check it out. I changed it.