Today's OW Course

[Teamcasa]

How about lowering the standards for DM, AI and Instructor? That would get a whole lot more certified. If money generation is the only factor, one would think that this would be done (again). More Instructors= more divers=more money for all involved.

I think you are not getting my point. (My fault, I'm a lousy communicator.)

My point is that it is money that drives the diving industry today. The industry caters not to the dedicated, well trained and active divers but to the occasional, vacation only recreational diver. Any effort to change the direction will be met with, "...It's not profitable enough..." reaction. This is not something I'd like, it's just the way it works.

...We need increased standards for Instructor certification...

To what end? Again, my point is that the typical vacation diver is simply not going to care or pay anymore than necessary to get their cert.

I don't see a simple solution. Resorts are not going to deny divers the opportunity to spend money. Shops won't either. The only place any change can happen is if PADI/NAUI (et all) start to add more requirements to getting certified but in balance with the economics.

 

[DCBC]

I think you are not getting my point. (My fault, I'm a lousy communicator.)

My point is that it is money that drives the diving industry today. The industry caters not to the dedicated, well trained and active divers but to the occasional, vacation only recreational diver. Any effort to change the direction will be met with, "...It's not profitable enough..." reaction. This is not something I'd like, it's just the way it works.

Yes Dave, but you wrote this under my quote "How about lowering the standards for DM, AI and Instructor? That would get a whole lot more certified. If money generation is the only factor, one would think that this would be done (again). More Instructors= more divers=more money for all involved." Would not this increase profits?

Again, my point is that the typical vacation diver is simply not going to care or pay anymore than necessary to get their cert.

I don't see a simple solution. Resorts are not going to deny divers the opportunity to spend money. Shops won't either. The only place any change can happen is if PADI/NAUI (et all) start to add more requirements to getting certified but in balance with the economics.

I understand the resort aspect to this, but you don't seem to understand that this isn't where the majority of money is made in the diving industry. Resort operators make more from divers in room nights than for diving services. The money made in the U.S. is in equipment sales. Most divers want to be able to dive themselves without a DM. The OW level course is required, not a basic or resort course.

People who take a Basic SCUBA course often take them at the resort. In the U.S. and Canada they take an OW course. Perhaps some Instructors run a OW course like it was a Basic Course, but that's not what they are charging the public for.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Let me jump in here on this one with a story.

I was diving in a local quarry a couple weekends ago. The water was 77 degrees, 20 foot visibility down to the thermocline, which was at 30 feet. There were two other guys diving there, one of whom I know to be an instructor at a LDS and the other guy who I didn't know.

They came up and were doing a short surface interval in the water.

The instructor said "Thats like, what, your 58th?" The other guy said "Yeah, that's right"... the instructor said "OK, then we do two more dives, go to twenty feet and stay down 20 minutes, so I can sign off on your book and we can get out of this crap. I hate diving in this crap"

Turns out they were out there doing a series of 20 minute dives to 20 feet just so the guy could get to the minimum required dives to be a DM.

I've got a LOT more dives than this DM candidate had in, going on twice as many, and not a single bleeding one of them have been of the "20 feet for 20 minutes so I can count a dive" variety... and I am not qualified (IMHO) to even START divemaster training.

Standards don't mean anything if people are willing to skirt the spirit of the rules, unless the agencies make people take rigorous individual skills tests with non-partial observers doing the testing.

People pay a lot of money to take these courses, and I think a lot of LDS's are really hesitant to fail anybody... which is why when I do eventually take my DM training I am going to go back to my original instructor who wouldn't even accept me unless he thought I was skilled enough to meet HIS standards... and would spend the time necessary to make sure I stone-cold was ready to do it and succeed.

This whole "start DM training with 20 dives" thing is a joke... the whole "number of dives" thing is a joke as well, since that is so easily (and often) manipulated.

A better standard, IMHO, is a skills review to start out with. I have been in the water with a BUNCH of DM candidates who simply don't know how to dive... and several certified DM's who frankly look worse than some new divers I have seen.

Personally, I am going to want to dive in about every condition before I feel I am read to be a DM... from drift diving (or float diving if you prefer), wreck diving, strong currents, surge, swell, cold water, zero vis, you name it... I think unless a person has a lot of EXPERIENCE in challenging conditions (and I don't yet), then they are not really ready to be a DM... but that's just my humble opinion.

I know someone who got their "numbers" for instructor rating like that ... and is now training other instructors the same way.

No matter what the system, there will always be those who will skirt the spirit, and "game" the letter for their own reasons ... and a skills review would still be subject to "interpretation" (as is the "mastery" standard in the current system).

As long as there's financial incentive to pass people regardless of qualification, there will be someone out there doing it ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[ReefHugger]

I saw where a 'dive with instructor' level was suggested. Makes sense, certainly better than what now prevails. However, could you please not use 'scuba diver' as the recommended name for this level. Scuba Diver is the entry level cert that I give. My 'Scuba Diver'ers are more knowledgeable and competent than the regular factory produced AOW's.

As to better quality instructors = better students. Beg to differ - the better quality won't necessarily filter through if the program is unchanged. Proficiency in clearing a reg can only be so high. However, if reg recovery is not in the program, then generally it wouldn't be taught irrespective of instructor quality.

Better instructor, comprehensive program, more time - yes.

 

[gcbryan]

I don't see where the Scuba Diver card rather than the OW card would do anything other than make some feel better perhaps. It would be the same diver with a different card. Can a Scuba Diver get air fills?

I don't know the answer to that...maybe the answer is no and that's the point. It's still not a good point in my opinion. He will still go diving with a buddy locally and will be no better trained.

Regarding money...I think there is some overreacting to this subject. Unless the government is involved meaning tax payers are footing the bill then money has to come from somewhere to pay the salaries of any organization. Money isn't all that PADI or any other organization is interested in. It is the measure of efficiency and popularity of a product. We may not like the product but then we can go elsewhere.

If you look at a PADI OW manual...it's reasonably complete for an entry level dive manual. Someone wrote that and wasn't thinking about money that day.

No one at PADI or at the local hardware store or the local doctor's office goes to work every day only thinking about money rather than about helping the customer. They don't get the money if they aren't offering what most people want. It's not just about money,money, money.

Dave is correct in that when most divers were hardcore divers the training was longer and better and now that the market has shifted to occasional resort divers the training matches that.

 

[VooDooGasMan]

sabbath999,
I can't agree wiyh you more on your story, and I have got to think that, that is how they became instructors also. I never thought of doing the certification classes before, and when I did, I had more experience diving in the great lakes, and local lakes, then the Instructors I met here in the puget soud, yes there were good ones, yet all the new ones taught scuba classes, dove only dives within 30 mins from there home or lds. and were always shallow, the deep dive was barley 80'. now this was in only 98'.

I actually think there are alot better and more instructors out there, but the majority of them will probably follow the path of your story to become an Instructor.

I still teach myself new things every dive, If I did not change it around I would grow tired of it. Teaching is one thing I can do, but just don't like all the stuff that goes along with it. showing divers ways to dive, does give you a good feeling about yourself, and that must be the addiction that makes a new diver become an instructor so quickly.

I have no answer for today's ow class, nor for yesterday's.

Happy Diving

 

[DCBC]

Personally, I am going to want to dive in about every condition before I feel I am read to be a DM... from drift diving (or float diving if you prefer), wreck diving, strong currents, surge, swell, cold water, zero vis, you name it... I think unless a person has a lot of EXPERIENCE in challenging conditions (and I don't yet), then they are not really ready to be a DM... but that's just my humble opinion.

I don't expect a DM to be able to dive in every condition, but I do expect him/her to know their limitations and those of the people they're responsible for. I expect the DM to be a master of the environment which s/he is exposed to in a leadership role.

Your goal to be experienced in all aspects of diving is to be commended. You obviously have a keen sense of your limitations; which in-itself would constitute a key requirement for becoming a DM or Instructor.

When confronted with a new underwater environment, I've always taken the attitude that I'm not the Instructor, but a student. Although I've been teaching a long time and try to keep abreast of technological advancements, its been the students themselves that have been my greatest teacher. Over the years any increased ability that I have to instruct, I owe to them.

 

[DCBC]

I saw where a 'dive with instructor' level was suggested. Makes sense, certainly better than what now prevails. However, could you please not use 'scuba diver' as the recommended name for this level. Scuba Diver is the entry level cert that I give. My 'Scuba Diver'ers are more knowledgeable and competent than the regular factory produced AOW's.

SCUBA Diver is a specific level of the training chain that has been established by some training organizations. It specifically certifies the diver to be competent to dive with a DM or higher leadership category.

May I ask what organization you certify through? How is the SCUBA Diver certification defined? If it does limit the diver to diving with a DM et al, why do you not issue the OW or equivalent card?

As to better quality instructors = better students. Beg to differ - the better quality won't necessarily filter through if the program is unchanged. Proficiency in clearing a reg can only be so high. However, if reg recovery is not in the program, then generally it wouldn't be taught irrespective of instructor quality.... Better instructor, comprehensive program, more time - yes.

This was my point I made on a previous posting. I agree.

 

[leapfrog]

Thanks. I believe your comments are useful, but for the sake of argument, why should the Instructor standards be higher?

Many working instructors are young people workng at resorts who did a ZTH program. An instructor should not only ensure skill mastery within different SNAFU scenarios, he or she should instill principles of coned and accident prevention in their students.

How would this affect the OW program?

More focus on different scenarios, increased task loading, predive decision making and diver self analysis,

Is instructor competence (or in some cases, the lack of it) the reason for the current incompetence of some OW divers

Yes.

or is it that the Instructor standards are sufficiently high and the Instructors just conform to what the LDS wants anyway?

This too.

How good do instructors really have to be if the other standards remain as they are?

Exactly what standards are you referring to?

Do you mean "Show me the mon ney!!"

Jerry, a charismatic sports agent who wants nothing but success for his clients. But he's a visionary who refuses to sacrifice his integrity to get there. "Help ME help YOU!"

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

SCUBA Diver is a specific level of the training chain that has been established by some training organizations. It specifically certifies the diver to be competent to dive with a DM or higher leadership category.

May I ask what organization you certify through? How is the SCUBA Diver certification defined? If it does limit the diver to diving with a DM et al, why do you not issue the OW or equivalent card?

Scuba Diver is NAUI's term for what PADI calls Open Water Diver. Likewise, what PADI calls Advanced Open Water, NAUI calls their equivalent Advanced Scuba Diver.

Of course, there's already a precedent for PADI and NAUI to use the same terms to mean different things (Master Diver and Divemaster, for example).

... Bob (Grateful Diver)