Spare Air - Sorry!

[BoltSnap]

Why is everyone so seemingly worried about running out of air? That's the question that should be answered.

The idea that an alternate air source, regardless of its size, is somehow a substitute for a missing buddy is pretty troubling. There are problems encountered underwater FAR more likely than suddenly running out of air. A serious cramp, nausea, disorientation, entanglement, anxiety, loose tank, loss of buoyancy, etc....a bailout bottle solves NONE of those problems, yet people routinely think that carrying one increases their safety because they 'might' get separated from their buddy.

Safe diving is one thing, use of bailout bottles is another, and the relationship between the two is more complicated than most people care to acknowledge.

Because "Out of Air" is a problem, everything else is an inconvenience. Some of us dive alone for a variety of reason. Some of us dive in places with poor visibility and the chances of losing their buddy is always there. A buddy is not always going to help in an out of air situation but an alternate air supply will especially if the two are on the low end of their gas supply. I believe that although we dive in buddy pairs (at least most of us most of the time), we need to plan and conduct our dives as if we were diving alone.

 

[DCBC]

My logic is that the SA only provides sufficient air for ascent at depths which would ordinarily be easily accomplished with CESA.

I disagree. If you exhale your last breath before you start a CESA another few breaths of air would be beneficial.

Furthermore, adding SA as an option in those scenarios (shallow dives) only serves to complicate and delay a diver's emergency reaction.

Not for a properly trained diver.

We've already seen one thread contributor citing their plan "to use SA to locate their buddy underwater if OOA". That's a good example of how it creates a false sense of confidence that has a severe negative impact on emergency management.

Any diver that would use a SA to locate their buddy at depth in an OOA situation, isn't very well trained imo and is a hazard to even be in the water in the first-place.

Spare Air has been used for emergency ascent. Chances are that those divers could have conducted a CESA anyway..and lived. Obviously the SA marketeers don't mention that when they cite their statistics.

That's an assumption Andy, which you can't substantiate.

This is very true. Some air is better than none. Especially if you are a highly experienced diver, with ingrained emergency reactions and a high tolerance for air starvation and equally high panic threshold....

I'd hazard to guess that some air is better than none, even if you're not an experienced diver.

However, my definition of an appropriate redundant air source is one which provides sufficient gas to reach the surface as a normal ascent...

Of course you are free to apply whatever personal definitions you like, but understand it is only your definition and is not shared by everyone.

Now.... I would still argue that SA is an inappropriate redundant air source. It can only supply sufficient air at depths where redundant air is not required. However, we can split hairs and I could agree that it was feasible as a "CESA Assist" device. BUT...(and a big BUT)... if it is used as a 'CESA Assist'... then it must not provide any other delays to the divers' CESA reaction...and the way it is marketed and advertised does exactly that.

No one is suggesting that you are not free to have your own personal opinion Andy. I personally believe that doubles with redundancy is the way to go. I do not however look down on another person's choice to carry a pony with a single tank, use a spare air, or decide not to carry redundant air at all. How much redundant air is required will depend on the situation, but I'm repeating myself...

 

[halocline]

Because "Out of Air" is a problem, everything else is an inconvenience. Some of us dive alone for a variety of reason. Some of us dive in places with poor visibility and the chances of losing their buddy is always there. A buddy is not always going to help in an out of air situation but an alternate air supply will especially if the two are on the low end of their gas supply. I believe that although we dive in buddy pairs (at least most of us most of the time), we need to plan and conduct our dives as if we were diving alone.

Sudden illness, disorientation, and entanglement are not just potential inconveniences, they can be quite hazardous depending on the circumstances. OTOH, with proper buddy techniques, OOA 'should' be merely an inconvenience.

My question about why so many divers are worried about running out of air was not questioning the hazard of being OOA. It was to determine what exactly divers believe will cause them to be OOA. Many new divers are very concerned about running out of air with no real understanding about what causes it. Equipment failure that causes sudden loss of access to air is EXTREMELY rare in recreational diving, and can be virtually eliminated as a risk simply by diving with reliable, well inspected and maintained gear. The air is there; your regulator is not supplying it, simply regulating it. This is why the VAST majority of regulator failures result in leaking air, which, given decent gas management, allows the diver to simply ascend to the surface.

So, lets hear it. What do you think might cause you to go out of air?

 

[UaVaj]

So, lets hear it. What do you think might cause you to go out of air?

Given my small # of dive logged. The last two time I was out of air was becuase my buddy sucked his tank dry and then sucked my tank dry.

First time we made it to the surface with less 100lb skipping the safety stop - the profile was 130'.
Second time we ran dry at the safety stop - the profile was 85'.



I do not buddy dive as in "buddy dive" anymore. Only person I buddy dive with is the one I share my bed with (she does not dive yet) and my 10 y/o boy. As for anyone else. We may dive together. However we are not buddy diving. I make that clear up front.

I carry a pony incase of equipment failure. Not for poor gas management.

 

[GrumpyOldGuy]

Given my small # of dive logged. The last two time I was out of air was becuase my buddy sucked his tank dry and then sucked my tank dry.

First time we made it to the surface with less 100lb skipping the safety stop - the profile was 130'.
Second time we ran dry at the safety stop - the profile was 85'.



I do not buddy dive as in "buddy dive" anymore. Only person I buddy dive with is the one I share my bed with (she does not dive yet) and my 10 y/o boy. As for anyone else. We may dive together. However we are not buddy diving. I make that clear up front.

I carry a pony incase of equipment failure. Not for poor gas management.

Uh, but gas management is what caused your 2 OOG/LOG incidents. Maybe your buddy was the trigger for the incident, but a solid gas plan should allow for a buddy to run out of gas at the max depth and still allow you to hit the surface with gas. Care to elaborate?

 

[Max Speed]

Spare air works fine for an emergency supply. It buys you the time to plan out your emergency response, it makes an emergency ascent much less stressful even if you finish it off out of breath. It gets you to your buddy. Two of them are easily carried on a deeper dive and get you to the surface from recreational limits.

Folks who say you can hold your breath for the same period of time have never breathed out, found nothing to inhale and been down deep in the dark with a buddy who panics and won't donate air.

Try exhaling at depth without prepping and then see how long you can go without a breath. Reaching down and grabbing the spare air makes all the difference.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Two spare airs could cover the cost of a 30 or 40 and a real reg.
If you're with a buddy who panics and won't donate you screwed up when you chose them as a buddy.
Reaching for the reg on 30 or 40 cu ft of gas is a wiser option.
Spending money on two spare airs would also be an indication to me of someone who does not understand proper gas planning and got taken by a shop who talked them into it.

 

[UaVaj]

Uh, but gas management is what caused your 2 OOG/LOG incidents. Maybe your buddy was the trigger for the incident, but a solid gas plan should allow for a buddy to run out of gas at the max depth and still allow you to hit the surface with gas. Care to elaborate?

My personal gas management is sound. I alway ascend with plenty of gas. 100psi per 10' of depth on a HP120. That mean with a 130' profile - I will ascend with 45cf. With a 85' profile - I will ascend with 30cf. With a 60' profile (depth the OP stated) - I will ascend with 21cf. Not including what is in my pony 23cf.

To make a long story short. We are hunting underwater. For whatever reason my buddy ended up burning all their gas and the come swimming toward me. I can see the panic in their eye with no regulator in their mouth. So I pull my primary out of my mouth and hand it to them and I grab my air2. They are still in such a panic state they continue to huff and puff - all the way to the surface.



If your ideal of a SOLID GAS PLAN is suggesting my gas management plan needs to take into account my buddy's poor gas managment skills. Forget that buddy. Will not be diving with him/her ever again.

Anyone that run out of OOG due to poor gas management should simply quit diving. Can not fix stupid. Only time OOG should even occur is during equipment failure.

 

[GrumpyOldGuy]

My personal gas management is sound. I alway ascend with plenty of gas. 100psi per 10' of depth on a HP120. That mean with a 130' profile - I will ascend with 45cf. With a 85' profile - I will ascend with 30cf. With a 60' profile (depth the OP stated) - I will ascend with 21cf. Not including what is in my pony 23cf.

To make a long story short. We are hunting underwater. For whatever reason my buddy ended up burning all their gas and the come swimming toward me. I can see the panic in their eye with no regulator in their mouth. So I pull my primary out of my mouth and hand it to them and I grab my air2. They are still in such a panic state they continue to huff and puff - all the way to the surface.



If your ideal of a SOLID GAS PLAN is suggesting my gas management plan needs to take into account my buddy's poor gas managment skills. Forget that buddy. Will not be diving with him/her ever again.

Anyone that run out of OOG due to poor gas management should simply quit diving. Can not fix stupid. Only time OOG should even occur is during equipment failure.

Actually, I do expect my gas plan to be able to compensate for a buddy's poor gas management. That is not hard to do and from your numbers, I would agree you had a decent plan that should have covered both of you. That went down the tubes due to your panicked buddy sucking down 2+ cu/ft a minute.

Of course if someone handed same panicked diver a SA at 5ATM, then he would have what, 20 seconds of air?

 

[DevonDiver]

Spare air works fine for an emergency supply.

Did you read the rest of this thread before posting? If so, how did you manage to create this blanket statement?

It buys you the time to plan out your emergency response,

aka, it delays your emergency response reaction.

it makes an emergency ascent much less stressful even if you finish it off out of breath.

It gets you to your buddy.

At no point should an OOA drill include: locate or catch buddy.

If you are OOA...and have a tiny cylinder of air to keep you alive... is it the time to start an underwater search?

As I've said in previous posts: "SA promotes complacency and creates a false sense of security". Thanks for providing an illustration of that.

Two of them are easily carried on a deeper dive and get you to the surface from recreational limits.

You're not serious right? You are suggesting that divers wear a 'bandolier' of Spare Airs for 30-40m dives?

Folks who say you can hold your breath for the same period of time have never breathed out, found nothing to inhale and been down deep in the dark with a buddy who panics and won't donate air.

Then you should hand in your cert card and stick to snorkelling. CESA is a core diving skill taught at OW level. If you can't manage it, then you are either diving too deep, you are under-equipped for the specific dive or you have no business being a scuba diver.

Try exhaling at depth without prepping and then see how long you can go without a breath.

About 1 and 1/2 minutes without struggling. Your point is?

Reaching down and grabbing the spare air makes all the difference.

Yes... you can wander off and look for your missing buddy right?