Concerns About Length of Open Water Course

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It might be easier with more time, but that does not change the fact that NO instructor should issue a card to someone who has not met the standards. If they can't do it in 2 days and that is the only time available, they should be failed. If they are not, it is not the fault of PADI, it is the fault of the instructor.

I was certified in 3 days total in a resort, counting the academic work. That was possible because, as I did not realize until much later, many standards were skipped altogether. I think I was competent in what I did, but there was much I did not do. I had no swim test. No float. No hover (the pool was only 5 feet deep). No underwater compass. I did only one equipment setup in the pool session. I can't remember what else was skipped, frankly. That is the fault of the dive operation that set up the system and the instructors who agreed to work in it

This is how bad it can get!! In China..a girl had just learnt to swim in previous 12 months, never snorkeled, signed up for a PADI OW course, watched a Padi DVD in class for 1 hour, then 2 x 2 hour sessions in a 2mtr deep pool, then one boat dive to 10 mtrs...she was then given a PADI OW certification!!!...Hmmm...I feel for instructors these days!

And that is much more instruction than my niece received when she was certified by NAUI.

What conclusion do you draw from that?
 
dondon462:
This is how bad it can get!! In China..a girl had just learnt to swim in previous 12 months, never snorkeled, signed up for a PADI OW course, watched a Padi DVD in class for 1 hour, then 2 x 2 hour sessions in a 2mtr deep pool, then one boat dive to 10 mtrs...she was then given a PADI OW certification!!!...Hmmm...I feel for instructors these days!
OK, at least she learned to swim prior to the course. :) A lot of OW students that I work with have never used a snorkel before the first Confined Water session with me. And the 'academics' and pool sessions would appear to be a bit short (WARNING: understatement zone in effect here). But, if the above description is accurate, there appears to be a serious standards violation with regard to the OW dive(s)! Was this reported to PADI Asia?
And that is much more instruction than my niece received when she was certified by NAUI. What conclusion do you draw from that?
My conclusion is that the majority of agencies thoughtfully set reasonable and appropriate standards (individual opinions notwithstanding). And, those agencies also provide direction and guidance to their credentialed instructors regarding how those standards are to be applied. (Jim Lapenta's earlier post about what he was recently told at DEMA is one example). But, ultimately, every agency is potentially vulnerable when individual instructors fail to a) adhere to standards and b) follow guidelines. Diving is not alone. A few medical professionals cheat insurance companies and Medicare with regard to reimbursement. A few attorneys abscond with client funds, or suborn perjury. A few high school teachers have affairs with their students. I don't know that the solution is adding an extra year to residency programs, or a 4th year to the law school curriculum, or making more teachers stay after school. Maybe my Saudi friends have the right idea - if you violate dive instruction standards, you are going to have some part of your anatomy cut off. :)
 
A few medical professionals cheat insurance companies and Medicare with regard to reimbursement. A few attorneys abscond with client funds, or suborn perjury. A few high school teachers have affairs with their students. I don't know that the solution is adding an extra year to residency programs, or a 4th year to the law school curriculum, or making more teachers stay after school. Maybe my Saudi friends have the right idea - if you violate dive instruction standards, you are going to have some part of your anatomy cut off. :)

And I agree.

My field is public education. In America, all teachers are required to have college degrees and a significant amount of training before they can even take their certification exams. Once they have completed the exams and been certified, they have to be hired by school districts that are very carefully looking for the best possible candidates. Once hired, they must go through in in-district training process. In their first years of teaching, they are on probationary status and must be observed and evaluated carefully many times. Once they are on regular teaching status, the observations and evaluations by a qualified educational expert must continue until they their careers are ended. They must periodically renew their certifications, and in doing so they must verify that they have completed a certain amount of continuing education.

All of that is required by law so that our students receive the best possible educations.

And yet we have many thousands of teachers across the country offering the equivalent of the worst scuba classes you can imagine. I have seen absolutely stunning incompetence many times in my career.

How can a scuba agency hope to do any better?
 
How can a scuba agency hope to do any better?

Perspective:

My field is diving education. In my agency, no teachers are required to have extensive, proven experience nor significant amount of training before they can even take their certification exams. Once they have completed the exams and been certified, they don't have to be hired by employers that are not very carefully looking for the best possible candidates. Once hired, they don't go through in in-district, or in-house training process. In their first years of teaching, they are not on probationary status and are not observed and evaluated carefully many times. Once they are on regular teaching status, the observations and evaluations by a qualified educational expert do not continue until they their careers are ended. They don't need to periodically renew their certifications, and don't have to verify that they have completed a certain amount of continuing education.

Spot the difference?

IMHO, Quality Assurance is primarily where the problem lies. The QA process seems to be failing. With educational consultants on staff, and a plethora of 'best practice' to learn from, I find it perplexing why certain agencies have failed to create adequate systems and processes that do a more efficient job of ensuring that their standards are adhered to. A cynic may suspect that those agencies have an agenda not to actively apply stringent quality assurance.

Secondly, we have the issue of standards and syllabus. If we are identifying a trend that some educators/operators are providing training on the basis of minimum standards, or failing to meet standards entirely, to the exclusion of other stated factors determining agency-specified 'successful' training outcome - then that deficit needs to be addressed by the agency.

We might acknowledge that specific wording in the agency standards excuses that agency from direct culpability for this trend, but a lack of tangible action (rather than protective wording) remains telling. There is obviously some disagreement about where the burden of responsibility for successful training lies. Whilst the educators/operators provide that training, it is reasonable to expect the agency itself to ensure the training is provided to its own stated standards. The agency has ample means to do that through instructor/instructor-trainer training and certification... coupled with the aforementioned QA process.

However, to enact such measures would likely have an impact on the volume of instructors certified, reducing a major profit center for the agency. It could also result in a higher proportion of QA actions conducted. This transparency could expose the agencies concerned to legitimate external criticism... and corporations don't like that. Less transparency and admittance of problems may seem prudent, especially when the lawyers and marketing department are concerned...and those directed to achieve maximum profitability. In contrast, the educators themselves may feel otherwise in the pursuit of training excellence.

In order to fix serious problems, you first have to admit that serious problems exist. There may be some business-driven inertia for agencies to resist going through that first stage of acceptance.

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The alternative, and less cynical, explanation would by a psychological one. Those involved with scuba diving simply love diving - and people involved in scuba agency policy-making feel some 'paternal instinct' towards the training system they have evolved. In that respect, we might interpret some stages of corporate 'grief' (as defined in the Kübler-Ross model) when they are confronted with criticism and/or evidence that their system is less than optimal.

We can see evidence of this is many threads here on Scubaboard, where agencies have been criticized...

The Kübler-Ross model extrapolated for corporate paternalism...


1) Denial — "Everything is fine."; "This isn't happening, not to us."

Denial is usually only a temporary defense. Denial can be conscious or unconscious refusal to accept facts, information, or the reality of the situation. Denial is a defense mechanism and some people can become locked in this stage. Kubler Ross recommends not prolonging denial by distorting the truth about the condition.

2) Anger — ""It's not our problem, we did everything we could!"; '"Who else is to blame?"; "Competitors are out to get us!"

Once in the second stage, the individual recognizes that denial cannot continue. Because of anger, the person is very difficult to care for due to misplaced feelings of rage and envy. Anger can manifest itself in different ways. People can be angry with themselves, or with others, and especially those who are close to them. It is important to remain detached and nonjudgmental when dealing with a person experiencing anger from grief.

3) Bargaining — "We'll make some changes, but nothing drastic."; " We will change wording, but not standards.."

The third stage involves the hope that somehow failure can be postponed or delayed. Psychologically, the organization is saying, "I understand we are failing, but if I could just do something to buy more time..."; leading to compromises and half-measures. Compromise rarely provides a sustainable solution.

4) Depression — "I'm so frustrated, we made some change, but nothing changed!"; "Nothing can be done, so what's the point?"

During the fourth stage, the organization begins to understand the reality of failure. Compromises and half-measures achieved no tangible results. Because of this, the individual may become silent, refuse counsel and stifle further talk of change. This process is one of disconnection from the things that are loved; i.e. the joy of diving. An example might be "screw it, let's just earn big profits". It is a kind of acceptance with emotional attachment to the product/system. It's natural to feel sadness, regret, fear, and uncertainty when going through this stage. However, feeling those emotions shows that the organization has begun to accept the situation.

5) Acceptance — "It's going to be okay."; "I can't fight it, I may as well change."

In this last stage, corporations begin to come to terms with their fallibility and the mistakes that have been made. This stage varies according to the situation. As the situation is accepted, the organization becomes able to look for meaningful solutions and new directions.
 
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Thanks Colliam,

I appreciated your feedback and others.

I just want to clarify one point. I know that we all dive in very different locations and conditions around the world.

Diving in Victoria/Melbourne can be extremely challenging. We dive in the mouth of a bay that fills and empties twice a day into the ocean. We try to do most of the dives during slack water which lasts for about 40 minutes. The diving is mostly wall systems with depths of 60+. Often we can get large swells. The currents can be quite strong, all of our entries are hot drops without visual reference. At the end of the dive we must deploy SMB so that the boat can find us as divers will surface in different location because of the said mentioned conditions.

I guess I was not specific enough with my initial question. In these types of environments should PADI enforce more strict training standards.

My initial concerns are attributed to the fact that after the 2 day course the very next weekend my student can book them selves on a boat get an insta buddy and go diving in these conditions.

It just seems like a disaster waiting to happen.
 
I guess I was not specific enough with my initial question. In these types of environments should PADI enforce more strict training standards.

PADI says that the training should prepare divers to dive safely in the environment in which they were trained. If they are to do more challenging environments, they should seek further training. That is clearly stated in the materials.

Are you saying that you are not preparing divers to dive in the environment in which they are being trained?

---------- Post added December 19th, 2013 at 04:34 PM ----------

Perspective:

My field is diving education. In my agency, no teachers are required to have extensive, proven experience nor significant amount of training before they can even take their certification exams. Once they have completed the exams and been certified, they don't have to be hired by employers that are not very carefully looking for the best possible candidates. Once hired, they don't go through in in-district, or in-house training process. In their first years of teaching, they are not on probationary status and are not observed and evaluated carefully many times. Once they are on regular teaching status, the observations and evaluations by a qualified educational expert do not continue until they their careers are ended. They don't need to periodically renew their certifications, and don't have to verify that they have completed a certain amount of continuing education.

Spot the difference?

Yes, I did.

Did you recognize that almost everything I pointed out for teaching is required by law, something that does not exist for scuba? Do you realize that this limits what agencies can do in terms of regulation?

Do you have any idea what it would cost to implement such a system for scuba? Did you notice that despite the legal requirements for teachers, and despite the many, many millions of taxpayer dollars spent to train and evaluate teachers, we still have many really crappy ones in the system?

Do you have any idea what it would cost the scuba industry to match the cost of the public education system, a system which apparently does not do any better to produce quality teachers?
 
I believe that I prepare my divers for the environment to the best of my ability with the constraints placed upon me by the local industry and my LDS.

note: I have decided I am not going to teach anymore as my initial concerns and the reason I made the inital post have been confirmed by all the feedback.

I thank the posters for sharing their knowledge and wisdom with me.
 
Do you have any idea what it would cost the scuba industry to match the cost of the public education system, a system which apparently does not do any better to produce quality teachers?
Professionals built the Titanic, rank amateurs built the Ark. :D The difference between excellence and mediocrity is passion. Sheer passion.

note: I have decided I am not going to teach anymore as my initial concerns and the reason I made the inital post have been confirmed by all the feedback.
Is teaching independently not an option for you?
 
Is teaching independently not an option for you?

I have looked into it and considered setting up my own business. In the end the math didnt add up.

If I was to seriously consider going alone I would make all the OW dives boat dives that would cost me $520, + I would have to rent gear for the student + air + PADI costs etc. I would have to sell the course for $1500 - $2000.

There are quite a few affluent people in Melbourne, pehaps they would pay that much for private instruction??
 
You might be able to work out a commercial rate with the boats. I don't teach PADI, but the first two dives are in a sheltered cove (free) and I spend less than $80 to put a student on a boat for their last two dives. Actually, I spend a bit less than that, but I'm not allowed to post that. :D I think we charge about $550/student.
 

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